Players choose what their PCs do . . .

FrogReaver · Jul 6, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
 Great post. What I find particularly noteworthy is that I can both deeply resent the notion that a GM can dictate how I should roleplay my character and acknowledge that the result is still roleplaying.

When the DM declares your character does X, how exactly at that moment are you taking on the role of that character in the fiction? It seems to me the DM is the one taking on the role of your character in the fiction at that moment...

Guest 6801328 · Jul 6, 2019

FrogReaver said:
When the DM declares your character does X, how exactly at that moment are you taking on the role of that character in the fiction? It seems to me the DM is the one taking on the role of your character in the fiction at that moment...

You are either playing a pointless semantic game, or my joke about the first person shooter was spot on.

But I'll give you credit. This is how many threads where pretty much the whole gaming community gangs up to disagree with you? And yet you don't back off one bit. Points for perseverance.

"And still he persists."

FrogReaver · Jul 6, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
You are either playing a pointless semantic game, or my joke about the first person shooter was spot on.

But I'll give you credit. This is how many threads where pretty much the whole gaming community gangs up to disagree with you? And yet you don't back off one bit. Points for perseverance.

"And still he persists."

Nice question dodge. Any other takers?

Guest 6801328 · Jul 6, 2019

FrogReaver said:
When the DM declares your character does X, how exactly at that moment are you taking on the role of that character in the fiction? It seems to me the DM is the one taking on the role of your character in the fiction at that moment...

Wait, that wasn't fair. I at least owe you the courtesy of a response.

No, for that moment where the DM is telling me how to roleplay my character (note that the DM isn't actually "taking on the role of my character" unless, well, unless he/she is taking on the role of my character), in that moment I am not roleplaying. Then, when the DM stops talking and its my turn again, I'm roleplaying.

It's kind of like David Mermin's famous first sentence in a physics paper, "We now know with certainty that the moon does not exist when nobody is looking at it." When I'm not actually roleplaying, it's true that I'm not actually roleplaying.

Here are other moments when I'm not roleplaying:
1) When I stop to take a gulp of Mountain Dew
2) When I make a joke about Gazebos
3) When I roll dice
4) When I say, "Hold on, I need to look up color spray...."
5) When ask the DM to describe what the NPC looks like
6) Etc., etc. etc.

And yet, somehow I am still playing a roleplaying game.

Ovinomancer · Jul 6, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Choosing a foundational theme or scene elements or even results of your actions - all of those things are not-roleplaying - per your own definition roleplaying is about taking on a role in a shared fiction - none of those things involve taking on a role in a shared fiction.

(Well, I suppose you could be roleplaying a DM but that's not really what we are talking about here...)

Right, because determining elements of the fiction that you're playing a role in has absolutely nothing to do with playing the role. Wait, what? Nope, it totally does.

But, this is a very nice rhetorical trick where you take me talking about play preferences and pretend it's a post about the definition of roleplaying.

FrogReaver · Jul 6, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
Wait, that wasn't fair. I at least owe you the courtesy of a response.

No, for that moment where the DM is telling me how to roleplay my character (note that the DM isn't actually "taking on the role of my character" unless, well, unless he/she is taking on the role of my character), in that moment I am not roleplaying. Then, when the DM stops talking and its my turn again, I'm roleplaying.

It's kind of like David Mermin's famous first sentence in a physics paper, "We now know with certainty that the moon does not exist when nobody is looking at it." When I'm not actually roleplaying, it's true that I'm not actually roleplaying.

Here are other moments when I'm not roleplaying:
1) When I stop to take a gulp of Mountain Dew
2) When I make a joke about Gazebos
3) When I roll dice
4) When I say, "Hold on, I need to look up color spray...."
5) When ask the DM to describe what the NPC looks like
6) Etc., etc. etc.

And yet, somehow I am still playing a roleplaying game.

That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. You do get it!!!

Umbran · Jul 6, 2019

FrogReaver said:
That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time. You do get it!!!

In the moment that an actor is told by the director to do something, they are not acting. But then, they roll cameras, and the actor does do the acting - they then play the role.

Even with very, very heavy direction, even when someone else has outright written the lines and done the blocking, you can still then play the role.

pemerton · Jul 6, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
If the DM hands me a slip of paper that says: "As a result of your capture last night at the Wizard's manse you are now under mind control. Your personality will not change, but your primary goal is to lure the rest of the party to a meeting at the docks tonight at 11th bell. Your character will explain everything away with a tale of near capture and last minute escape and wlll not mention his capture or the mind control under any kind of duress."

So, mind control, ok. There are lots of campaigns where I would definitely still RP this, even D&D campaigns. But somehow because the DM was giving the instructions without the gossamer thin difference of NPC voice I'm somehow not roleplaying? I don't follow. The DM said it, I'm doing it, it's roleplaying. Maybe that doesn't satisfy your definition of "whatever the DM says"? IDK ...

This makes sense.

In my Burning Wheel game one of the PCs was subjected to Force of Will by a dark naga. I told the player that he had to write a Beilef reflecting this, and the two of us hammered that out over the course of a few minutes. Then the player just went on playing his PC.

FrogReaver · Jul 6, 2019

Umbran said:
In the moment that an actor is told by the director to do something, they are not acting. But then, they roll cameras, and the actor does do the acting - they then play the role.

Even with very, very heavy direction, even when someone else has outright written the lines and done the blocking, you can still then play the role.

You get it too! Now why do you think this is an important point to bring up and have acknowledged on a thread about RPG action resolution mechanics?

pemerton · Jul 6, 2019

FrogReaver said:
In one case the magician - has an in-fiction method of making your PC obey his commands. A maiden's wink (unless it's a wink with supernatural powers) doesn't have an in-fiction method of making a PC do anything.

Two things in reply:

(1) I reiterate what [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] says about Bob. Whether or not it can be roleplayed, and counts as roleplaying, has nothing do with the stuff the GM (or other player) is imagining as s/he tells you what has changed about your PC's mental states.

(2) You seem to be pre-supposing that the only way that human beings can influence one another's mental states is by way of magic. I see human influence one another's mental states all the time, and I've never seen a human use magic. So I don't agree with yur presuppsition.

FrogReaver said:
The moment that additional description is about the PC doing something additional than what the player said then it's the DM assuming roleplaying responsibilities for that PC for that moment.

And one thing here, which goes back to the OP: the player has established that her PC is looking for an escape route. The GM isn't having the player do something additional. The GM is establishing further true descriptoins of what the player has had her PC do - you look at your barred window, thinking it might be an escape route. Of course these are descriptions that the player wouldn't choose if she had her way - that's because she failed her check!

But the additional description isn't of an additional action. It's additional description of the same action (looking for an escape route).