Players choose what their PCs do . . .

generic · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I wanted to add, it's not just about challenging the player. Everything I've said also applies to the character.

Of course.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

I honestly would even struggle to classify an in-combat attack against a PC or NPC as a challenge for them. The combat itself may be a challenge both for the player and the character. But a single attack from that combat is really just a piece of the overall challenge that's occurring

The challenge that comes from combat is determining what resources to use when, or whether you should save some for later in the day. Those are the combat challenges a player and a character face. (I say the character - presuming you believe a character is at least somewhat aware how much gas he has left in his tank for the rest of the day)

generic · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I honestly would even struggle to classify an in-combat attack against a PC or NPC as a challenge for them. The combat itself may be a challenge both for the player and the character. But a single attack from that combat is really just a piece of the overall challenge that's occurring

The challenge that comes from combat is determining what resources to use when, or whether you should save some for later in the day. Those are the combat challenges a player and a character face. (I say the character - presuming you believe a character is at least somewhat aware how much gas he has left in his tank for the rest of the day)

AC is not ability, and saving throw bonuses are not a skill (non-mechanical).

I agree completely.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

Could it be that players often prefer D&D combat over non-combat play largely because DM's can be pretty bad about making out of combat challenges where characters and players actually face risk due to uncertainty?

Maxperson · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I wanted to add, it's not just about challenging the player. Everything I've said also applies to the character.

The character is really just a sheet of paper. It's the player inhabiting the idea of the character that gives it life. That's why I don't understand this idea that you can challenge the character socially, without challenging the player. When [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] said that I was switching the challenge from the character to the player, I had a vision of Leslie Nielson in an interrogation room with a character sheet sitting on a chair, demanding that it confess. After a few minutes he turns to Nordberg and says, "I never thought it would be so hard to challenge a character."

You cannot challenge a character without simultaneously challenging the player. A challenge where the DM takes control and informs the player that his PC's heart warms is no less a challenge to the player than what we are describing. It's just a different sort of challenge.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

Maxperson said:
The character is really just a sheet of paper. It's the player inhabiting the idea of the character that gives it life. That's why I don't understand this idea that you can challenge the character socially, without challenging the player. When @Umbran said that I was switching the challenge from the character to the player, I had a vision of Leslie Nielson in an interrogation room with a character sheet sitting on a chair, demanding that it confess. After a few minutes he turns to Nordberg and says, "I never thought it would be so hard to challenge a character."

I think there is a difference between challenging the player and challenging the character. I think it needs explored whether such you can ever challenge the character without challenging the player.

I don't view the character as a character sheet. IMO They exist in the shared fictional world that we have created. They can be challenged in that world the same way I can be challenged in this one.

You cannot challenge a character without simultaneously challenging the player.

That's an interesting assertion and one I need to ponder on.

A challenge where the DM takes control and informs the player that his PC's heart warms is no less a challenge to the player than what we are describing. It's just a different sort of challenge.

The more I think about that the more I think that is not a challenge at all.

Maxperson · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
I think there is a difference between challenging the player and challenging the character. I think it needs explored whether such you can ever challenge the character without challenging the player.

I don't view the character as a character sheet. IMO They exist in the shared fictional world that we have created. They can be challenged in that world the same way I can be challenged in this one.

But all that shared fiction is in the minds of the players and DM. Only the sheet, dice, etc. are independent of that. It might be possible to challenge the character purely mechanically, but not socially. The social construct of the character is entirely mental, and entirety of the character's personality is inside the player of that PC. Others can interact with the character in the shared imagined space, but without some sort of active control over the PC in some way(mechanics), that's as far as it goes.

The more I think about that the more I think that is not a challenge at all.

Which is not a challenge? The original description of the maiden interaction, my description of the maiden interaction, or both?

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]

You said: "

You cannot challenge a character without simultaneously challenging the player. "

Fog of war style challenges will challenge both the character and the player. These are the challenges I propose as the most fun.

I believe there also contests like a game of basketball, a game of athletic ability and skill, that is very challenging (aka difficult to win) provided the opposing team is about equal to you. A game of basketball is typically going to need to be resolved purely by mechanical randomization in an RPG. In this instance your character can be challenged while the player is not. That's not a particualarly interesting or fun challenge for the player but I think it's probably best to classify this as a challenge.

I still don't think a single sword swing or single basketball shot should be called a challenge though.

Maxperson · Jul 13, 2019

FrogReaver said:
@Maxperson

You said: "
You cannot challenge a character without simultaneously challenging the player. "

Fog of war style challenges will challenge both the character and the player. These are the challenges I propose as the most fun.

I said that in the context of the social challenge, though. Socially, I don't believe it is possible.

I believe there also contests like a game of basketball, a game of athletic ability and skill, that is very challenging (aka difficult to win) provided the opposing team is about equal to you. A game of basketball is typically going to need to be resolved purely by mechanical randomization in an RPG. In this instance your character can be challenged while the player is not. That's not a particualarly interesting or fun challenge for the player but I think it's probably best to classify this as a challenge.

I still don't think a single sword swing or single basketball shot should be called a challenge though.

That depends. If the PC is going to take a shot and the NPC goes for a steal or block, then it would be an opposed challenge in my opinion. You could term it a mini-challenge if you want, but it's still a contest.

FrogReaver · Jul 13, 2019

Maxperson said:
I said that in the context of the social challenge, though. Socially, I don't believe it is possible.

I'm pretty much in agreement, though there are some that are insisting you can run social encounters the same way you run combat encounters. I'm not 100% sure if you really can or not (I heavily lean toward not possible as well), but I'm more concerned with that's gained by running a social encounter as a combat encounter. It seems to me that if even possible, that it's an inferior way of handling that situation? Is there anything I'm missing?

That depends. If the PC is going to take a shot and the NPC goes for a steal or block, then it would be an opposed challenge in my opinion. You could term it a mini-challenge if you want, but it's still a contest.

I like the term contest there