D&D 5E Horde of the Dragon Queen (what am I doing wrong)spoilers

Charlaquin · Jul 1, 2019

So, to anybody who does like Hoard of the Dragon Queen, let me go ahead and apologize for calling it a terrible module. I was just trying to be quippy, but I don’t mean to poo-poo on anyone else’s preferences. Personally, I did not like HotDQ for a number of reasons, but if it worked for you, that’s awesome. Please know that my critiques of it are based on my own experience with it and my own taste, not meant to be taken authoritatively.

TaranTheWanderer said:
Ok, fair enough. One of my players had it and I don't have lots of time to do a homebrew campaign, so I ran it. Are you suggesting I ran things properly?

It seems to me like you ran things just fine. It’s just that HotDQ is extremely lethal in the beginning.

TaranTheWanderer said:
I've been playing 5e for three or so years and have been finding it to be a less deadly compared to previous editions. It could be that I've had a couple 'story driven' DMs who didn't push combat very hard. Even when I DM one-shots, I've found I've been able to err on the side of more deadly to challenge PCs.

I guess I was just 'trusting' the module for balance but a lot doesn't feel 'right' as I was prepping stuff. I know there's a thread to help 'improve' the module but what's the point of having a module if you have to read a 10-page thread? For me, I run modules to save time and reading piles of threads is just more prep that I don't have time for.

It has been my experience as well that 5e is generally less lethal that previous editions, save 4e. HotDQ, however, was the first module written for 5e, and I think the balance issues that many people find with it have a lot to do with that.

TaranTheWanderer said:
What modules are good? I'm willing to buy a different one. I was thinking of running Storm King's Thunder.

Lost Mine of Phandelver from the starter set is excellent. If you can get ahold of the Sundering modules, they’re technically written for the playtest version of 5e, but they’re fantastic and easily compatible with the final version of 5e. Curse of Strahd is pretty good, but I would strongly caution against using story-based level advancement with it. I can’t speak to Storm King’s Thunder as I haven’t read it, but I have heard good things about it. My experience playing it has been a tad on the railroady side, but not half as bad as Dragon Queen in that regard. I would not recommend Princes of the Apocalypse at all.

TaranTheWanderer said:
I told them to make new characters. They're all new to D&D so, on the bright side, they've learned the value of retreating and caution.

Yeah, I think for players who know to expect the early game lethality of HotDQ and enjoy that kind of play, it wouldn’t be a big problem (though such a group would still have to contend with its linearity).

collin · Jul 1, 2019

Charlaquin said:
I can tell you exactly what you’re doing wrong. You’re running Hoard of the Dragon Queen. It’s a terrible module.

What he said.

Retreater · Jul 1, 2019

I've run a few of the published adventures, so I might be able to address them.

In addition to Hoard of the Dragon Queen, I've also run Lost Mines of Phandelver (a few times, actually), Storm King's Thunder, Tomb of Annihilation (a couple times), Out of the Abyss, and Princes of the Apocalypse.

Here are my quick summations of the issues with each. However, I do think that all of them are useful, even if just mined for ideas.

HotDQ: Railroady, imbalanced, improper use of the rules since it was written before the rules were finalized. Best used as an outline.
Lost Mines: Pretty strong sandbox adventure. Only goes from 1-5 levels.
Storm King's Thunder: The plot is a little more obtuse than needed. More than 50% of the book you're not supposed to use, as it's only "go to one of these four locations" several times throughout the adventure. We ended up scrapping the plot and going with something more direct.
Tomb of Annihilation: The motivation for the adventure is either lost or its causes the party to rush through the jungles of Chult, having little reason to explore the locations - which is the highlight of the adventure. Find a different reason to bring them to Chult and to seek out the Forbidden City.
Out of the Abyss: The opening is rough and requires buy-in from the group. You'll be running around a dozen NPCs, so it's a lot to keep up with. The introduction of demon lords very early in the adventure can cause the groups to lose heart and try to run away from the adventure (happened both times I ran it).
Princes of the Apocalypse: Pretty strong adventure with short dungeon crawls to keep it from getting boring. The first location - "the air tower" - has very complicated political machinations that I've never been able to wrap my head around. Best to tweek that one a bit.

jayoungr · Jul 1, 2019

Charlaquin said:
Lost Mine of Phandelver from the starter set is excellent.

I thought about suggesting that one, but if the group is having problems with lethality, I don't think LMoP is going to be better than HotDQ. I recall lots of groups reporting TPKs in the goblin caves at the beginning.

***

[MENTION=15882]TaranTheWanderer[/MENTION]: Re-reading your initial post, I do think maybe you're playing the enemies as smarter than many DMs would, especially for a low-level game. An enemy that gets down to 1 HP would, in my low-level games, just run off to lick his wounds, rather than summon help. And with the way you used the boss and mooks in the Frulam Mondath fight, I think you outmaneuvered your players, in addition to outnumbering them.

ART! · Jul 1, 2019

I haven't read much of the thread yet, but yes: HotDQ is...not good.

The big final encounter/location is a de facto TPK unless as a DM you have some experience or know the system really well. The PCs are almost completely isolated - and the only would require skill checks whose failure will kill you - in a large location full of all kinds of things that can kill them, big and small. Best guess is the PCs are expected to hide and heal a lot, or be very, very, very clever and/or lucky.

Charlaquin · Jul 1, 2019

jayoungr said:
I thought about suggesting that one, but if the group is having problems with lethality, I don't think LMoP is going to be better than HotDQ. I recall lots of groups reporting TPKs in the goblin caves at the beginning.

Yeah, the goblin caves are a TPK waiting to happen if the players try to fight their way through them. But the adventure gives them every opportunity to negotiate with either the goblins or klaarg (or both, and play them against each other.) I think it’s a very good use of a deadly encounter - yes, if you end up fighting and don’t retreat, you likely won’t survive. But several things have to go wrong for you to end up in that situation,

Gradine · Jul 1, 2019

As soon as I saw the thread title I was like "someone's going to say 'playing HotDQ'" and this thread sure didn't disappoint!

HotDQ is great for new players but pretty terrible for new DMs because it does take quite a bit of tweaking; there's generally too many combat encounters, and it'll either grind your players into paste or bore them to death depending on where you are (Greenest vs Naerytar, for example).

But what it does is provide you a series of very different styles of adventure in its first half (hub-based missions, subterfuge/infiltration, dungeon crawl, tour-the-realms), then presents you with a handful of site-based adventures where you can utilize what you've learned in the previous chapters to tackle them in any different way.

You can't really run it as written, which is definitely a knock, but there's a surprising amount of good ideas here given the reputation it has.

Tony Vargas · Jul 1, 2019

TaranTheWanderer said:
Horde of the Dragon Queen (what am I doing wrong)?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

Charlaquin said:
I can tell you exactly what you’re doing wrong. You’re running Hoard of the Dragon Queen. It’s a terrible module.

...that.

2 TPKs.
I don't get it. Am I playing the enemies too hard/smart?

Greenest:

HotDQ went to the presses before the Encounter Guidelines, and it shows. Especially in the first set of encounters. Being outnumbered tells more heavily in 5e than in most prior eds, and the author either didn't realize that, or was obliged to design encounters a certain way that simply didn't work well. Aside from that, had they been guideline-compliant encounters, the Greenest set-up was a pretty good way of getting DMs and players used to the Short-Rest trade-off. Each hour you have a choice to go on a mission or rest, if you go all missions, you'd probably die, even if the encounters were built to suitable guidelines.

Also, 1st level is just the deadliest level of 5e.

Is the whole module like this?

Yes, but the /system/ improves as the PCs level. By 3rd you should be seeing far fewer problems.

TaranTheWanderer said:
What modules are good? I'm willing to buy a different one. I was thinking of running Storm King's Thunder.

Not great either, also might steer clear of Tomb of Annihilation. Phandelver's s'posed'ta be quite good, for a beginning module. I liked Curse of Strahd, and the collection-of-classic-modules-re-boot, Yawning Portal.

They're all new to D&D so, on the bright side, they've learned the value of retreating and caution.

I have a sneaking almost-conspiracy-theory suspicion that it was intended. 5e tends to break a little 'easy' compared to other eds, especially once magic items come into it, so making 1st level a little rough may establish a first impression that it's a 'hard game,' letting players feel better about running roughshod over it later.

JiffyPopTart · Jul 1, 2019

Two qualifiers to make a comment.

1. I have never ran, ran in, or read HOTDQ.
2. I have no idea the exact circumstances of the scene where the Goliath was KOed.

Comment

If I were running a low level adventure in which the heros killed some bad guys and rescued some prisoners but in which one of the players (who was heavy) was dropped I would probably rule that the captives can help the party to "shoulder the load" by taking on their packs/weapons/whatever and the party could get away safely with the unconscious character. I really try to avoid killing low level characters, especially ones that players have put some effort into creating story and party interconnection hooks with.

DS

Nebulous · Jul 1, 2019

TaranTheWanderer said:
What modules are good? I'm willing to buy a different one. I was thinking of running Storm King's Thunder.

I told them to make new characters. They're all new to D&D so, on the bright side, they've learned the value of retreating and caution.

Personally I have run Lost Mine of Phandelver (loved it), Princes of the Apocalypse (loved it) and about half of Tomb of Annihilation so far (loving it). The latter are probably for more experienced DMs and not newbies, but they're super fun. I heard that Curse of Strahd if fantastic but I haven't run it.