D&D 5E Saving Throws and non-proficiency

cbwjm · Jul 9, 2019

I'm thinking of granting all players half-proficiency to their non-proficient saving throws so that there is still at least some scaling of all saves for all classes as they level beyond the occasional ASI put into a stat (The cool thing is that you can adjust this in DnDBeyond and have it automated). Has anyone tried this? I'm not sure if this would be "Yay, I save more often, I AM UNSTOPPABLE!" fun or "Looks like I saved again, not much challenge in this game." non-fun. Just wanting to get some feedback for anyone who has done this.

Shiroiken · Jul 9, 2019

I have considered this, but IDK. Half seems to greatly reduce the overall benefit of proficiency at levels 1-4, since it's really only a +1 bonus. I considered 1/3, but that's only +2 once you get to levels 17-20, which is pretty pathetic. I would probably split the difference, and grant half proficiency starting at level 5 (so it's a flat +2 bonus against non-proficient until level 13).

jaelis · Jul 9, 2019

Would you do the same for monsters, or is it more of a “the pcs are special” kind of thing?

5ekyu · Jul 9, 2019

See, to me, things like this fail on multiple levels.

First, it isnt very significsnt. Tier 1 and 2 it pays off 1 off-save in 20 mostly

Second, since it's just baked in automatically, its invisible. It's just another pre- figured bonys among bonuses.

Three, it reduces character differences. Its literally everyone gets it **and** it drops the gap between the individual choices a tad more. Blah. I want more fidtinctiveness, not less.

Do, I would choose to allow this not as a matter of auto- math but instead add in some form of choice driven mechanic.

Go look at Success at cost in the DMG. Whrn you fail a save by 1-2 (pretty close to the range where half-prof would matter) you can **choose** to succeed but with some on the fly specific personal situational setback.

Which is more **fun ** or awesome to you. ?

Looking down at a +5 save snd making your DC 14 cuz you rolled a 10...

Or

Looking down at your +3 save, rolling a 10, getting 13 vs 14 and saying "wait, though, my guy "does" power thru the webs anyway but it wrenches his pack and dome other gear off - they remain stuck in the webs or stuck together by web strands that tore loose eith us"

Really, at half-prof, the "it matters" cases until you get to +6 at highest tiers falls within the success at cost and turns the "squeak by" into an active and interactive thing eith vonsewurnces rather than just the same toll add compare you do time and again.

Obviously, many other ways to make the "awesome" more than just same- math-different-day.

mortwatcher · Jul 9, 2019

from my experience, I have not seen a player go "Looks like I saved again" and be bummed about it. Oh bummer, my character didn't get dominated/feared/whatever nasty effect save spells often have.

Swarmkeeper · Jul 9, 2019

IMO, adding bonuses to all PC Saving Throws results in:

- Reducing the differentiation between PC classes
- Nerfing monster effects that require saves (i.e. the OP's "not much challenge in the game" comment)
- Diminishing the awesomeness of the 14th level Diamond Soul feature of Monks
- "Mehing" these features: the Rogue's Slippery Mind, the Gloom Stalker's Iron Mind, the Samurai's Elegant Courtier
- Lessening the Concentration advantage Sorcerers and Eldritch Knights have over their spell casting brethren
- Reducing/eliminating the usefulness of the Resilient feat

And probably more.

Too many tendrils affecting too many things... which might lead to the need to adjust other numbers elsewhere.

Xeviat · Jul 9, 2019

I'm going to apply proficiency bonus to all saves, change class proficiency save bonuses into flat +2 bonuses, and raise the Save DC math to 10+modifiers. Everyone will thus be the same at first level, but bad saves will scale far better. The differences in ability scores will still provide differences in saves.

This also makes monsters not have abismal saves at higher CRs.

cbwjm · Jul 9, 2019

jaelis said:
Would you do the same for monsters, or is it more of a “the pcs are special” kind of thing?

More of a PCs are special kind of thing as the heroes of the story. Monsters will retain their current saving throws.

cbwjm · Jul 9, 2019

mortwatcher said:
from my experience, I have not seen a player go "Looks like I saved again" and be bummed about it. Oh bummer, my character didn't get dominated/feared/whatever nasty effect save spells often have.

I'd be worried that people might find it a bit too easy if they save more often than not. It's like playing in God mode in a video game, fun rom start but gets old quick. Admittedly this change might not make too huge a difference at later levels since they might go from needing a roll 19 to save to a 16 to save. A greater chance but still not stacked in their favour.

Xeviat · Jul 9, 2019

cbwjm said:
I'd be worried that people might find it a bit too easy if they save more often than not. It's like playing in God mode in a video game, fun rom start but gets old quick. Admittedly this change might not make too huge a difference at later levels since they might go from needing a roll 19 to save to a 16 to save. A greater chance but still not stacked in their favour.

I don't think players will notice that. They will notice of they roll a 15 on their d20 for a wisdom save and still fail, though.