D&D 5E "The Future of D&D is International" (Inverse article)

Zardnaar · Jul 19, 2019

Sword of Spirit said:
It's cool that they're wanting to expand more.

I prefer physical books in general. I also like to have pdfs to go with my books. They are more portable, more searchable (if I don't happen to know it like the back of my hand), and allow me to have multiple rules pages visible simultaneously.

Other digital formats might be better in some ways, but they have major downsides too. Subscription models bug me. Buying content that I can only use with a specific online service bugs me in general--probably because I've lived in several places in the US, and have never yet lived anywhere where the internet is as consistent as the electricity (though I think I may just have bad luck in that regards). And I also like to be able to access the book itself in my digital content, not just the content in it. I like seeing the layout and art. Then I can turn my tablet into a quasi-book. I memorize where stuff is on the page. So I'd rather have a digitized book to supplement my physical book, than just a digital content element reference. Maybe I'm a minority, but I still think they are dismissing the pdf market without sufficient evidence.

Glad to hear it. The previous policy justification was absurd. I certainly hope they aren't considering piracy based on them officially releasing a pdf to be a real issue. Because it's not. There is this amazing newfangled device called a "scanner" that allows people to scan that physical book they bought, borrowed, or stole, and upload it to the internet so anyone who wants to can download it. I mean, it's not a given, of course. Amongst all the millions of physical copies of the books circulating, you need at least one whole person to decide to scan it and upload it. If WotC put out their own pdf, it would entirely eliminate the scanning element, so now you only need one whole person who knows how to upload, but not scan, a book to enable piracy. :rolls eyes:

The books are already going to be pirate-ready almost immediately after release. The question is whether WotC would like to offset the losses incurred through piracy by providing a legal option for those who actually want to buy a pdf to give them money rather than going without (or pirating, based on the individual in question).

I think right now they just aren't taking into account those who are interested in pdfs specifically, as opposed to just having some sort of digital delivery in general. It makes sense for them to go with the angles they are taking based on their perspective on what people want. Maybe it's just me who would like the actual books in pdf (and not at the same price as the hardcopy!) rather than just the content in some other digital format.

Why in Baator would Chinese censorship care about fiendish stuff? The problem it had in the Western world back in the day was predominantly due to a specific (possibly minority) segment of Christians. That demographic is tiny in China. Is there some sort of tension between Communism and fantasy fiendishness that I'm unaware of?

It's cultural and the communists see things like spiritualism, ghosts, demons etc as backwards and superstitious.

Chinese culture used to have Hungary Ghosts and honoring your ancestors. It's been a while since my China paper at University but things like that are frowned on.

It's kind of like superstitious peasants vs modern industrial superpower and how the government wants to present itself to the world.

Magic is also a problem in the Islamic world so D&D won't appeal much and their idea of magic includes things like palm reading and horoscopes.

Something like Storm Kings Thunder could be banned in Russia and may not be very popular in Eastern Europe and parts of South America.

Parmandur · Jul 19, 2019

Zardnaar said:
It's cultural and the communists see things like spiritualism, ghosts, demons etc as backwards and superstitious.

Chinese culture used to have Hungary Ghosts and honoring your ancestors. It's been a while since my China paper at University but things like that are frowned on.

It's kind of like superstitious peasants vs modern industrial superpower and how the government wants to present itself to the world.

Magic is also a problem in the Islamic world so D&D won't appeal much and their idea of magic includes things like palm reading and horoscopes.

Something like Storm Kings Thunder could be banned in Russia and may not be very popular in Eastern Europe and parts of South America.

Your knowledge about Chinese government standards regarding fantasy/sci-fi stuff is severely outdated, actually. TVTropes has the following to say about Ice Fantasy, again produced for major television in Communist China, a show about Elf Wizards and spirit shamans battling for ancient magic artifacts in a world of high fantasy:

"Interestingly, the world of Ice Fantasy seems to be influenced largely by Western Fantasy staples such as The Lord of the Rings or even A Song of Ice and Fire instead of by Chinese literature, although Wuxia tropes such as the use of Wire Fu and the presence of Kung Fu Wizards fighting a Red Shirt Army certainly abound. There are mermaids, unicorns and all manner of monsters; there's true love to be found and lots of growing up to do (occasionally very speedily)."

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/IceFantasy

Zardnaar · Jul 19, 2019

Parmandur said:
Your knowledge about Chinese government standards regarding fantasy/sci-fi stuff is severely outdated, actually. TVTropes has the following to say about Ice Fantasy, again produced for major television in Communist China, a show about Elf Wizards and spirit shamans battling for ancient magic artifacts in a world of high fantasy:

"Interestingly, the world of Ice Fantasy seems to be influenced largely by Western Fantasy staples such as The Lord of the Rings or even A Song of Ice and Fire instead of by Chinese literature, although Wuxia tropes such as the use of Wire Fu and the presence of Kung Fu Wizards fighting a Red Shirt Army certainly abound. There are mermaids, unicorns and all manner of monsters; there's true love to be found and lots of growing up to do (occasionally very speedily)."

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/IceFantasy

They let in some stuff of course. There's a lot if stuff they don't let in though.

I can't remember how many movies they actually let in.

A lot of it is arbitrary as well. Your example was a domestic production, it's a bit different for Western stuff.

Even if stuff is allowed in what sells is entirely different. It varys by country and there have been plenty of marketing screw ups by English speaking companies from inadvertently offending people through to words used mean something different in their language or slang.

You'll find a few all around the world of course I think one of the OSR games had several groups playing in Kazachstan of all places with photos posted online.

Sword of Spirit · Jul 19, 2019

Parmandur said:
It might not be a question of taking into account, it may be that they weighed the option and decided against that while taking that into account.

Yes. I used poor phrasing--I meant that they aren't considering any demand for that particular product to be worth pursuing (and they may be correct).

WotC runs a pretty robust PDF operation with the DMsGuild, which is how they would sell new 5E books on PDF if they wished to (and they have a large amount of 5E material up themselves). We know from posters here who have top sellers on the DMsGuild (which is all available via DriveThruRPG as well) that a big seller means hundred, if not thousands of copies. Whereas Rll20, Fantasy Grounds and D&D Beyond we know to be servicing hundred of thousands, if not millions, of customers. Certainly millions are using the books.

So, in terms of business opportunity, a few thousand people who like PDF as a format just might not have a good ROI for WotC, if it distracts from more fruitful ventures like Beyond. Even taking that some people would like it into account.

I would, however, expect that if pdfs of the 5e core rules were on DMsGuild they would sell substantially more copies than the third-party bestsellers.

Parmandur · Jul 19, 2019

Sword of Spirit said:
Yes. I used poor phrasing--I meant that they aren't considering any demand for that particular product to be worth pursuing (and they may be correct).

I would, however, expect that if pdfs of the 5e core rules were on DMsGuild they would sell substantially more copies than the third-party bestsellers.

Maybe, but maybe not: a niche market is niche, no matter the product. And it isn't like the official stuff, like the Wayfinders Guide to Eberron, is working on a different scale: a platinum best-seller is a platinum best-sellernon the platform.

Parmandur · Jul 19, 2019

Zardnaar said:
They let in some stuff of course. There's a lot if stuff they don't let in though.

I can't remember how many movies they actually let in.

A lot of it is arbitrary as well. Your example was a domestic production, it's a bit different for Western stuff.

Even if stuff is allowed in what sells is entirely different. It varys by country and there have been plenty of marketing screw ups by English speaking companies from inadvertently offending people through to words used mean something different in their language or slang.

You'll find a few all around the world of course I think one of the OSR games had several groups playing in Kazachstan of all places with photos posted online.

Ice Fantasy is a domestic production (though the art direction is all from your countryman, Dan Hennah, to get that Lord of the Rings feel). But if you look at the Chinese box office, what really sells are big sci-fi and fantasy action movies, either Chinese or (surprise!) American made. Even political intriguing in fancy costumes is now mainstream in Chinese television and film (see also Novoworld, Monster Hunt The Mermaid, etc.). D&D could really hit it big in China, which would be admittedly very odd even ten years ago.

MNblockhead · Jul 19, 2019

Okay, you've convinced me.

Mistwell said:
I disagree, but let me provide some background for other people reading this before I state my disagreement.

BACKGROUND

A little over a decade ago (around April 2009) WOTC mentioned piracy as one of the major reasons for them pulling PDFs that year.

That policy was real, and was part of a crew at WOTC which isn't there anymore. Literally almost a complete turnover in personnel, from the Legal department to the PR department, to the content development department, it's all different people now from those who formulated or supported that policy.

In the past 5 years, WOTC representatives have consistently and repeatedly stated a different reason for not liking PDFs. And it's reflected in this most recent article as well. And that is, simply put, they don't think PDFs provide a good experience. WOTC prefers either hardcopy, OR digital means which are more interactive and allow a user to immediately pull up a cited rule or section of another book on the same page, like a popup or whatever.

And consistent with that stated policy, WOTC has supported DnDBeyond, Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, etc., which all have a much more interactive element to digital content.

As far as I know, not one single WOTC representative has mentioned piracy as a major, or even minor, factor in their approach to digital content, for nearly a decade now. Not since early 2009 have I seen anyone from WOTC (on the D&D side at least) mention piracy.

RETORT

To believe that the primary reason WOTC's D&D team doesn't like PDFs is that they make piracy easier is to essentially claim either WOTC employees are all lying, or at least misrepresenting the reasons they support other forms of digital content and hardcopies over PDFs. It also assumes all the previous people at WOTC who used to work there and have piracy as their major objection to PDFs somehow passed that policy down to their successors, and those successors have for some reason never mentioned that reason again despite their predecessors being rather open with Piracy being their primary motivation for opposing PDFs.

I don't buy it. And without some evidence piracy is a major motivating factor now (as opposed to a decade ago), I think Occam's Razor dictates the stated reasons are the real reasons currently, and not piracy.

If you disagree, I'd love to see some evidence, any evidence from later than 2009, that shows the current employees working on the D&D end of WOTC think piracy is a major reason to avoid PDFs. Because I just have not seen it, and I don't think they're lying or misrepresenting when they say the primary reason is the antiquated static usability of PDFs.

MNblockhead · Jul 19, 2019

I'm not sure. I'm a 40-something, white American who has lived and worked in a number of countries, mostly India, China, and Taiwan.

Zardnaar said:
I don't see D&D doing that well in a lot of countries for various reasons.

1. It's an American game. By that I mean you kill stuff and it's kinda violent

Violence as entertainment is not an American or European anomaly. I've yet to encounter a culture where violence was not regularly depicted in their TV shows, movies, and books. American TV, movies, and many books do pretty darn well overseas as well.

2. It's based on European myth, legends and history.

Lots of western myths, legends, and history do well with non-western audiences. The thing about many of the great (or at least long-lived) stories is that they touch on archetypes that transcend culture even as they define it.

I would LOVE to see more East Asian myth, legends, and history influence D&D, but you don't need a Chinese setting for Chinese to enjoy playing an adventure.

Also, the gonzo, kitchen-sink Forgotten Realms may be mostly European influenced, their is nothing about that melange of fantasy cultures and history (which draw from many real-life cultures) that would be hard to grasp or unrelatable to people in China, Japan, India, etc., much less latin-american countries.

3. Cultural awareness. D&D isn't really a thing in a lot of countries. They won't get references in shows like Stranger Things. Nor will they care.

Maybe not, but that's what marketing is for. I think it is less "D&D" specifically and more that TTRPGs are not common and it will take some explaining...just like it did in America and England in the 70s and 80s.

4. Cultural differences in gaming preferences. Are RPGs and Western type games a thing in other cultures.

Well, tabletop gaming has been around for millennia in many/most cultures. TTRPGs will take some time to catch on. Streaming games in other languages can help greatly with this.

5. Cultural differences pt 2. Some things in D&D would be offensive in other cultures. Art, demons, devil's, polytheisism,magic etc.

Sure, not to mention depictions of gender, sexuality, revealing attire, and other cultural landmines. There are certain places where people either will not have the freedom to access certain D&D materials or where religious or other cultural sensibilities and taboos will make it difficult to catch on.

You also need a middle class and economics to support it. A phb is the equivalent of $300 bucks or so in some countries.

It is common in large markets like India and China to print the books at lower quality and sell for quite a bit less. This could be done with D&D. That said, a large relatively poor country will still have many people who can afford the books.