GlassJaw
Hero
Well this has turned out to be a great discussion! Thanks everyone. Lots of good ideas in here.
As I've read through the thread, I've become more convinced that the fighter needs something. All the arguments about why the fighter is fine - the player should role-play better, the DM needs to engage the player, use your background skills, everyone can roll skill checks, etc. - can be applied to EVERY class.
The thing is you don't hear those arguments being made about the other classes (maybe the barbarian occasionally). Why is that? Because the other classes have abilities that make up for it. They don't have to rely on the DM going out of his way to engage them or "role-play" more so they feel like they are contributing.
The other argument is that fighters get more feats so a player can use them to provide more non-combat options. While that is true, I don't think it's comparable by a long shot. As others have pointed out, the fighter is only getting 2 extra feats by level 12, which higher than most campaigns last. In addition, the first "extra" feat slot comes online at level 6. The fighter needs more options a lot earlier, like levels 1 and 2.
As far as skills go, of course every class can attempt any skill check. That's not the issue here. It's that fighters don't have anythink unique to offer the group when not in combat. And the skill checks they do make are usually covered by the other classes already, and are usually not as good anyway.
In my 30+ years of playing RPGs, every person that I played with - regardless of their experience, dedication, class they are playing, whatever - everyone wants to be able to do something cool and feel like they are contributing. The fighter just doesn't have it when not in combat.
As I've read through the thread, I've become more convinced that the fighter needs something. All the arguments about why the fighter is fine - the player should role-play better, the DM needs to engage the player, use your background skills, everyone can roll skill checks, etc. - can be applied to EVERY class.
The thing is you don't hear those arguments being made about the other classes (maybe the barbarian occasionally). Why is that? Because the other classes have abilities that make up for it. They don't have to rely on the DM going out of his way to engage them or "role-play" more so they feel like they are contributing.
The other argument is that fighters get more feats so a player can use them to provide more non-combat options. While that is true, I don't think it's comparable by a long shot. As others have pointed out, the fighter is only getting 2 extra feats by level 12, which higher than most campaigns last. In addition, the first "extra" feat slot comes online at level 6. The fighter needs more options a lot earlier, like levels 1 and 2.
As far as skills go, of course every class can attempt any skill check. That's not the issue here. It's that fighters don't have anythink unique to offer the group when not in combat. And the skill checks they do make are usually covered by the other classes already, and are usually not as good anyway.
In my 30+ years of playing RPGs, every person that I played with - regardless of their experience, dedication, class they are playing, whatever - everyone wants to be able to do something cool and feel like they are contributing. The fighter just doesn't have it when not in combat.