8 minutes/turn - is that very slow? slow? average?

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 16, 2013

Quickleaf said:
While I do display PC defenses on cards, my group has the same issue with conditional modifiers. I kind of wish players would not pick feats/traits/powers which boost defenses because of the tracking headache, but I'm not going to dictate to players how to make their characters.

Some of that is hard-baked into the classes- like the Warlock's Shadow Walk ability. But the rest? I mean, damn near every power worth taking for some classes toss off conditional modifiers...and not just for PCs, either. Many do so for foes, too.

...8-minute turns is *way* longer than what other groups experience. So there's definitely something "unique" to my group going on.

We take longer, up to twice as long. Part of that is due to the size of our group, but not all.

Hussar · Apr 16, 2013

The thing I've found that really, really grinds the gears is when someone forgets something and then remembers it a couple of turns later on in the initiative line. Completely breaks any momentum. We've pretty much made a table rule that anything you forget, you lose, if it's more that two "turns" after your turn. If you remember on the next turn? Ok, fair enough, go for it and interupt things. Otherwise, just eat it and remember next time.

The other thing is, plan your turn on the previous player's turn. It's pretty rare that the tactical situation changes that much from one turn to the next. At least not hugely anyway. So, think to yourself, "Ok, I'm going to use power X on Monster Y and if that works, I'll use my Action Point to dump in Z". Have it all ready to go.

There is absolutely no reason a turn in 4e should take more than a couple of minutes.

AbdulAlhazred · Apr 16, 2013

My weeknight group unraveled lately, so we restarted it last night. With 4 new level 1 PCs and 2 new to 4e players we ran our first combat, that went 30 minutes. It wasn't the fanciest thing but it was about level + 2 and posed some threat. The players were definitely slow, figuring out how their powers worked and I have little familiarity with the classes in use (2 barbarians, and Ossassin, and an Avenger) so it was really on the long side. Still, set up, play through the 4 rounds it lasted (yeah, 4 strikers, things get silly) and post-game analysis and clean up total was under 40 minutes, with the actual combat rounds part of things being 25-30 minutes of that. Given that I winged the whole thing on my side and nobody quite knew their PCs it went well. All of these people are pretty experienced gamers, so they do tend to move on and dig into it. I'm liking it. This group should be real snappy with a couple fights under their belts. Not sure exactly how they'll manage to SURVIVE, but the players also expressed a desire to play some high attrition adventures, so...

Quickleaf · Apr 16, 2013

Dannyalcatraz said:
Some of that is hard-baked into the classes- like the Warlock's Shadow Walk ability. But the rest? I mean, damn near every power worth taking for some classes toss off conditional modifiers...and not just for PCs, either. Many do so for foes, too.

IMO it's a flaw in power design to include so many conditional modifiers. I know when I last played a PC in a 4e game I actually had a challenging time building a PC who did *not* get bogged down with conditional modifiers.

We take longer, up to twice as long. Part of that is due to the size of our group, but not all.

You have more than seven players? Have you considered group/side initiative to reduce the amount of stuff changing between player turns and limit when they use free actions/immediate reactions/interrupts?

drothgery · Apr 16, 2013

Dannyalcatraz said:
We take longer, up to twice as long. Part of that is due to the size of our group, but not all.

I'm hoping you're talking about an 8-minute round here, not an 8-minute turn (which in 4e speak is one character's actions). Of course, I'm hoping the OP is, too; 8 min for everyone's actions isn't bad, 8 min for any one person's (other than the DM if there's a lot going on) is terrible.

Quickleaf · Apr 16, 2013

drothgery said:
I'm hoping you're talking about an 8-minute round here, not an 8-minute turn (which in 4e speak is one character's actions). Of course, I'm hoping the OP is, too; 8 min for everyone's actions isn't bad, 8 min for any one person's (other than the DM if there's a lot going on) is terrible.

I am talking about average player turn length approaching 8 minutes, and it taking us about 2.5 hours to get thru two combat rounds (with 9 turns). Again, it was a very complex combat, but still...

And anything constructive you can offer is appreciated

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 16, 2013

Quickleaf said:
IMO it's a flaw in power design to include so many conditional modifiers. I know when I last played a PC in a 4e game I actually had a challenging time building a PC who did *not* get bogged down with conditional modifiers.

Conditional modifiers in and of themselves is not the issue, but when you consider that they are fleeting as a mayfly's life, things get messy. Its one reason I preferred 3.5Ed's power design- no fewer modifiers, but they lasted long enough that things didn't change from round to round.

You have more than seven players? Have you considered group/side initiative to reduce the amount of stuff changing between player turns and limit when they use free actions/immediate reactions/interrupts?

Yes, we have more than 7 at times- and more for 3.5Ed.

I'm not the DM.

Even if I were, personally, I never liked group initiative for PCs or gimping power designs for convenience. Too often, it screws up player tactics, IME.

drothgery said:
I'm hoping you're talking about an 8-minute round here, not an 8-minute turn (which in 4e speak is one character's actions).

In our case, rounds, not turns.

drothgery · Apr 17, 2013

Dannyalcatraz said:
Conditional modifiers in and of themselves is not the issue, but when you consider that they are fleeting as a mayfly's life, things get messy. Its one reason I preferred 3.5Ed's power design- no fewer modifiers, but they lasted long enough that things didn't change from round to round.

... assuming no one decided to kick off MAD with Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic/Mord's Disjunction. And the odd 1dX rounds and 1dX+Y rounds durations weren't exactly easy to track either.

But I do think effects initiated by players should have been consolidated to 'until end of next turn' and 'for the entire encounter' durations, with 'save ends' only applying to conditions monsters dumped on PCs.

Hussar · Apr 17, 2013

Quickleaf said:
I am talking about average player turn length approaching 8 minutes, and it taking us about 2.5 hours to get thru two combat rounds (with 9 turns). Again, it was a very complex combat, but still...

And anything constructive you can offer is appreciated

Wow. Just. Wow.

Eight minutes per person? With 7 players and a DM, that means I've got an HOUR between turns? I would paint the ceiling with my brains after the second round.

There is absolutely no reason why someone's turn should EVER take that long. Not in 4e.

I think you need to start making some status cards and really have to institute a shot clock. Two minutes is long enough. And, typically when I use this, the shot clock gets turned off as long as things are progressing. Sometimes, sure, problems happen, or a bunch of stuff happens at once. Ok, no problem. But, by and large, I'm thinking a lot of that eight minutes is spent futzing about in confusion.

I'd suggest taking a session or two just nailing down combat. Make a couple of arena encounters, not real, and run through things until people get to know their characters.

Eight minutes per person is insane.

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 17, 2013

drothgery said:
... assuming no one decided to kick off MAD with Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic/Mord's Disjunction. And the odd 1dX rounds and 1dX+Y rounds durations weren't exactly easy to track either.

But I do think effects initiated by players should have been consolidated to 'until end of next turn' and 'for the entire encounter' durations, with 'save ends' only applying to conditions monsters dumped on PCs.

Dispel everything and all the mods are gone, easy-peasy. Variable round duration spells are easily monitored with polyhedrons used as countdown trackers.

Part of what causes the problem is the "everything is a spell" design structure of 4Ed. In previous editions, most of your modifiers were either right there on your sheet (your sats & magic), conditional due to a combat maneuver, or from a spell- usually cast by one of the 2-3 casters in the group or 1-3 enemy casters.

In 4Ed, every character on the battlefield- or close enough to it as doesn't matter- can impose modifiers or conditions that need to be tracked.

In a sense, its one rep forward, one step back.

8 minutes/turn - is that very slow? slow? average?

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