D&D General Optimistic Thoughts on Optimizing

[payn]

It is for stuff like this that the concept of Session Zero was created.

It is, but sesh 0 is no foolproof plan either. It wont project you from a trojan horse because the person is acting in bad faith. Another thing ive learned about gamers is many of them do not read about the game, participate in social media discussions about the game, think about game design. There is a lot of catch phrases that folks think mean one thing, but can mean another leading to mismatched perceptions. Finally, some folks wont know until they do know. Meaning, they wont know until they dive in and play. So, sesh 0 always useful, but doesnt/cant always cover the bases of player play style and ability to fit in.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Help me out: I cant see the point in optimising in an low-lethality game.

even if you aren't going to die for failure it can still carry consequences, as well as the fact that for some failing just isn't fun,

 

[tetrasodium]

It is for stuff like this that the concept of Session Zero was created.

Not really, these kinds of things are fair game for the GM and players to bring up at any point in play. I think that @payn kinda nailed it but "session zero" obligations have almost been fetishized to the point where the gm is expected to approach it with the skills of a nearly omniscient diviner like Alex Verus or drop a tome of expectations that everyone will ignore. Meanwhile "you never covered that in session zero" is effortlessly thrown out & supposed to stonewall any attempts from the gym to course correct a new problem even if the problem is one of deliberate duplicity by a player in session zero.

Seth skorokowski has a great video on it

 

[Umbran]

Not really, these kinds of things are fair game for the GM and players to bring up at any point in play.

So? It isn't like the point of Session Zero is, "so you can never discuss this at any other time."

The point of Session Zero is to at least talk about these things once before you ever actually play. It establishes that the group can and will talk about these things like mature adults. It sets up base expectations and a useful social dynamic before any problem can start. Nothing about it precludes talking later.

I think that @payn kinda nailed it but "session zero" obligations have almost been fetishized to the point where the gm is expected to approach it with the skills of a nearly omniscient diviner

By all means, if you want to establish silence before play, for your table, by all means, do so. Nobody here is going to stop you.

The rest of us can talk about establishing useful norms for our groups before a crisis develops, instead of when folks are already upset about stuff and unsure how to approach it.

 

[bloodtide]

Boiling this down, the most key point is "Optimization becomes a problem in a group of non-optimizers".

This is true enough for most games. Though there is the whole DM side too as optimizers want an easy game play style too. And they want a DM that is "on their side".

There two types of Optimizer.
1. Odorous Optimizer Aka a power gamer who know the rules, builds, and etc. But they are the only star in the game, and the rest of the group must bow to their superiority.
2. Ovation Optimizer. knows the rules, builds, and etc. But know the game is team play and will take turns being the star.
or simply Power Gamer vs Optimizer.

Sounds good to me!

 

[Ogre Mage]

In the 3.5E days, I played in a party which was badly underoptimized. We had such "brilliant" builds like a fighter with Strength 11, Constitution 13 and Charisma 17. There was no hexblade in those days. The party was so bad that trying to complete at-level encounters in modules turned into a desperate struggle. I hated the game and was very frustrated. Interestingly, some of the players seemed relatively unbothered that we kept failing. They just accepted a game of failure. But I started optimizing my character because I could not stand it.

Sometimes I still look at that post I wrote back in 2003 during the depths of my frustration. It seems funny now. The thread was amusingly titled "Lame-o characters in your party."

 

[MGibster]

It is, but sesh 0 is no foolproof plan either. It wont project you from a trojan horse because the person is acting in bad faith. Another thing ive learned about gamers is many of them do not read about the game, participate in social media discussions about the game, think about game design.

I once participated as a player in a pulp campaign. The character I made was essentially a 1930s version of Sherlock Holmes who was a pacifist in the sense that he'd never kill anyone. I don't remember all the other player characters, but one of them was an unfrozen cavewoman with a pet triceratops. Her character fit in better than mine. Clearly my idea of pulp was wildly different from everyone else's.

 

[Umbran]

It is, but sesh 0 is no foolproof plan either. It wont project you from a trojan horse because the person is acting in bad faith.

Do not make perfect the enemy of good.

 

[payn]

Do not make perfect the enemy of good.

I’m doing quite the opposite. Like Seth advising folks sesh 0 never really ends. It’s not a cure all for perfect games.

 

[Thomas Shey]

even if you aren't going to die for failure it can still carry consequences, as well as the fact that for some failing just isn't fun,

Some of the most extensive optimization I've ever seen was in superhero games, where the genre conventions run from low to no lethality, because part of that genre is, of course, about power fantasy, so getting the character such that it feels like it has that proper edge of competence is crucial to some people.