Hussar
Legend
*Look's at [MENTION=6981174]Immortal Sun[/MENTION]'s post count*
While funny, there is a certain level of irony here.
What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?
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*Look's at [MENTION=6981174]Immortal Sun[/MENTION]'s post count*
While funny, there is a certain level of irony here.
In the current toxic environment, yes they would be treated the same way except that the Anti-Forgotten Realmers will finally have an excuse for their bad taste.
Hussar
Legend
Of course there is not a "threshold" and nor should there be. How ludicrous would that be? "Oh, well, you've only been accused three times, so, well, I guess it's okay"
And, yup, it's society which galvanizes action. Always has been.
You are looking for a one size fits all answer to an extremely complicated issue. You are not going to find it.
Hussar
Legend
Of course I am not talking about you being toxic.
Its like when the Trolls tried to come for Neil deGrasse Tyson. Ah, I pity the fools.
monsmord
Adventurer
I hope that this was not Celebrim's intent. I won't put words in their mouth. But I would ask - what are you hoping to accomplish here?
If it's to spark debate, and you don't feel the last mega-thread on Zak had enough to say on the matter, it might help if you were to offer your own opinions on the problem instead of repeating the questions across posts; offer your answers, we can talk about how our answers may differ, or how they may not, and we'll get some real discussion going on. (Hint: that last thread got heated, as you might expect, hence some of the reaction to your posts here is predicated on that experience. You should check out that thread in full if you hope to make your thread productive and not get closed.)
If you're here for actual factual answers, you won't get them in this forum. Folks here have lots of opinions on it; you'll get those by the dozens. But not actual answers - WotC, OneBookShelf, GenCon, Onyx Path, White Wolf, Frog God Games, and all the other organizations even remotely tied to this issue aren't looking at this thread, and won't be popping in to offer insight or official statements.
As to your very good point about how much the industry's "old boy network" may need to be dragged kicking and screaming into facing down its problems, especially in terms of #MeToo (or diversity in general), you're largely preaching to the choir here. And while your opinions are as relevant here as anyone else's, they're just as invisible to the people who matter.
To Celebrim's point, exposure across multiple platforms is one way of increasing awareness of the problem. Publicly calling out those who enabled this nonsense can be an instrument of change, but ENWorld has already done so (and had an impact, from what I can see). Starting another thread on the topic here isn't going to accomplish anything, whereas putting these questions/complaints in your blog, Twitter, or whatever other social media you frequent will help broaden the reach of the message. So, not a "get out of this forum," but "your voice will be louder and potentially more impactful if you take it to your followers elsewhere."
In my opinion, the only reason we're seeing the scope of industry action now is the scope of consumer/fan reaction to the latest iteration of allegations, fueled by the larger #MeToo movement. (Hit them in the wallet - works every time.) If ENWorld were the only place these things were talked about, nothing would be getting done. So preach it to all corners! In addition to posting here, write the publishers and cons and vendors, publish some open letters, join or organize boycotts, get people talking in places where they haven't heard about all this. The more bad press these folks get, the more they'll have to come clean and clean house.
A personal observation: it seems to me that allegations of sexually-related offenses are the ones that really brings out the citizenry concerned with ruining reputations. Even though the rates of false reporting for such crimes is roughly the same as (or lower than) the rates for robberies, assaults, murders, and other violent crimes.
You seldom see people outside the accused’s family and circle of friends pooh-poohing allegations of violent crime. There aren’t people going online to defend the reps of possible robbers, thugs and killers.
But accused sex offenders? “Why should I believe mere allegations? I know it’s a bunch of them, but nothing was ever proven in court.” Etc.
Every.
Damn.
Time.
It could also be misperception on my part, but the probability of people rising to the defense of males accused of sex crimes seems higher than for similarly accused women. I simply can’t remember any pushback over the reputations of women accused of being sexual predators.
You seldom see people outside the accused’s family and circle of friends pooh-poohing allegations of violent crime. There aren’t people going online to defend the reps of possible robbers, thugs and killers.
But accused sex offenders? “Why should I believe mere allegations? I know it’s a bunch of them, but nothing was ever proven in court.” Etc.
Every.
Damn.
Time.
It could also be misperception on my part, but the probability of people rising to the defense of males accused of sex crimes seems higher than for similarly accused women. I simply can’t remember any pushback over the reputations of women accused of being sexual predators.
I saw a statistic that said that 40% of men would suffer from domestic abuse at some stage in their life and yet if the Police turn up at your place after your partner beats you up it is the man that gets arrested every single time.
Hussar
Legend
On the question of "threshold".
Well, despite my earlier claims, there is actually a pretty simple threshold for businesses. Is associating my product with you costing me money? If yes, then, well, I no longer want to associate my product with you.
So, really, questions about "why didn't they do anything earlier?" basically miss that point. They didn't do anything earlier because it wasn't hurting business. Now, it is. So, now they do something.
[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] - the part that REALLY baffles me, is in the last several times this has come up, there hasn't actually been any real discussion of the veracity of the charges. They've pretty much been open record - yup he got drunk in the bar, yup, he chased a woman through the hotel, yup, he assaulted a security guard. Not a whole lot of secrets there. Same in this case.
Same in every other damn case that seems to come up regarding gaming.
Yet, every single time, it's "well, we can't do any more than wring our hands because we don't know the facts". What? Bwuh? We KNOW the facts this time and pretty much every previous time as well. The facts are public record.
Why is this even a discussion?
Well, despite my earlier claims, there is actually a pretty simple threshold for businesses. Is associating my product with you costing me money? If yes, then, well, I no longer want to associate my product with you.
So, really, questions about "why didn't they do anything earlier?" basically miss that point. They didn't do anything earlier because it wasn't hurting business. Now, it is. So, now they do something.
[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] - the part that REALLY baffles me, is in the last several times this has come up, there hasn't actually been any real discussion of the veracity of the charges. They've pretty much been open record - yup he got drunk in the bar, yup, he chased a woman through the hotel, yup, he assaulted a security guard. Not a whole lot of secrets there. Same in this case.
Same in every other damn case that seems to come up regarding gaming.
Yet, every single time, it's "well, we can't do any more than wring our hands because we don't know the facts".
What? Bwuh? We KNOW the facts this time and pretty much every previous time as well. The facts are public record.Why is this even a discussion?
I
Immortal Sun
Guest
*Look's at [MENTION=6981174]Immortal Sun[/MENTION]'s post count*
While funny, there is a certain level of irony here.
Except I'm not complaining about the "dangerous societal implications" of men being called out on their bad behavior.
If you're not familiar with why this looks a certain way you could ya know, have asked if I have experience with the subject. Maybe lack of a a bazillion posts doesn't mean anything. Maybe a billion posts also means nothing. But speaking from experience, when a brand new account starts off their posting by commenting on political issues and taking a very particular stance on certain subjects, you gotta suspect a duck really is a duck.
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