D&D 5E 6-8 encounters/day - how common is this?

CapnZapp

Legend
Dude - you're the DM. If you dont set 8 encounter Adventuring days then they dont happen.

Its like you saying 'Ive created and played in several adventures and not one of them featured goblins, so therefore goblins dont exist.'

Its spurious reasoning at best.
Sigh.

Why are you incapable of admitting the slightest fault on the part of the official products?

Why are you dead set on interpreting any fault or wonkiness as a weakness on the DM's part?

It's so frustrating to have you cheerily say anything that you don't feel is working as well as you would have wanted, is because you're doing it wrong. It's never the ruleset, it's never the designers.

I think your influence on struggling DMs is horrible, and I can't stand replying to you anymore.

The game is perfect and impossible to improve. You win.
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Why are you incapable of admitting the slightest fault on the part of the official products?
How is not being forced to only run the game in a way that matches the stated 6-8 encounters per long rest balance point a "fault on the part of the official products."?

That the game is built to be optimally balanced within that range does not mean that no deviation is possible, or that deviation is inherently "bad" or "wrong" - just that any deviation, no matter the reason, will have an effect upon how balanced the game is, and that effect will either need to be accepted (i.e "I run less than 6 encounters per long rest, so the game is easier than the default, and I'm okay with that") or be mitigated by the play group (i.e. "I run less than 6 encounters per long rest, but I still use the XP value of 6 normal encounters when making the fewer encounters that will happen, so the difficulty is still roughly at the default").
 

Sigh.

Why are you incapable of admitting the slightest fault on the part of the official products?

Strawman. Your position was the published products dont support the 6-8 encounter AD. I was just showing you this argument is false.

Why are you dead set on interpreting any fault or wonkiness as a weakness on the DM's part?

Because in this particular case it is the DMs fault. The wonkiness comes from the DM (in this case you) either not understanding, or intentionally not applying the 6-8 expectation in your campaign, or in any way policing the adventuring day.

Not policing the 5 minute adventuring day has been a bad idea since 1E. It got worse in 3E, slightly better (but still an issue) in 4E (at the cost of a feel of sameness), and is still an issue in 5E.

Where 5E differs from 4E is that by lengthening or shortening the AD, you impact the different classes differently, and play with encounter difficulty differently. While this makes it more of an art than a science to police, it has the advantage of allowing you the DM to create AD's that favor some classes (shorter ones for the long rest classes to shine) and longer ones that let the short rest classes (and champion and rogue) to shine. You can mix with party dynamic and power levels simply by adding (or removing) encounters or short rests. And you are not forced into a routine of X encounters per day. You can mix it up to taste allowing different classes the opportunity to shine at different parts of the story.

Its a feature not (as you claim) a bug.

It's so frustrating to have you cheerily say anything that you don't feel is working as well as you would have wanted, is because you're doing it wrong. It's never the ruleset, it's never the designers.

Its been pointed out to you repeatedly the 6-8 recomendation and why it exists. Weve shown you the maths, and discussed its advantages over a hard rule of 'X encounters per day or bust'. Youve been the one that has adamantly stuck to his guns that 'I dont stick to this in my campaign'.

Yet despite this fact, you blame the rules and not the referee.

The game is perfect and impossible to improve. You win.

Dude, no-one is making this assertion, and no-one is trying to 'win'. Chill out.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
"Because the cold harsh truth is that any intelligent gamer sees through the "excitement" of the 8 encounter workday, and simply stops his day when running low on resources."

What you fail to understand is that the player doesn't decide when those resources come back. The DM does.

So if the player stops after one easy encounter and says I rest eight hours he can do that. However it is totally up to you if he regains ANY resources.

In other words unless he has put in the encounters he isn't regaining jack! No hit points back, no class powers nothing, no spells NOTHING.


Maybe they are traveling and have one encounter per day. That means after at least two days and two encounters they can get in a short rest and receive the rewards of doing so.

While that's technically true, the PHB already says you can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hours. So if they do decide to stop after one fight, it doesn't matter, have 16 hours passed since the last rest? No? Then no refresher. No need for DM fiat at all.
 
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S'mon

Legend
Saying that the DM can enforce a 6-8 encounter day seems irrelevant to the argument that the game should have been balanced around a lower number of assumed encounters per day. 3e assumed 4/day, and that fits with my experience of dungeoncrawling expeditions; 3-4 combat encounters per day seems to be a typical cadence where the GM is not applying lots of narrative force to force more fights.

The bright spark is that 5e class balance seems much more about '2-3 short rests per long rest' than '6-8 fights per long rest'; 3-4 fights/day does strongly favour encounter-long Dailies like Wildshape & Barbarian rage,
but not specifically Daily powers over Short Rest powers. So turning SR powers into Encounter
powers by making a Short Rest ca 15 minutes instead of 60 minutes seems to be the solution;
that way they get used 3-4 times/day, once per Short Rest becomes once per (most) Encounters.
 
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Salamandyr

Adventurer
Just an observation and a suggestion.

Perhaps we are making too much of the "suggested 6 to 8 encounters per day" line, and not enough of the recommended encounter XP per day budget.

Look at it this way...a dungeon with 8 rooms* might be considered an 8 encounter day, even though only 4 or 5 of those rooms actually include dangerous monsters or encounter level traps to fight (the other rooms consisting of color, treasure, or puzzles which tax player brains but not character resources). Encounters have never been defined exclusively as combats.

So if we instead decide to focus on the daily xp budget, we can easily meet that with 3 to 4 hard to deadly encounters. And one can, and probably should, assume a short rest is necessary after at least every 1 to 1.5 of those.

So you actually get exactly 6 to 8 encounters, half of which are primarily role play, and probably two short (and occasionally three) short rests, as players bandage, restrap armor plates jostled loose, and loot bodies post combat.

This seems a more logical way of looking at "6 to 8 encounters" than "6 to 8 medium difficulty combats, half of which are boring slogs because the short rest dependent classes have no resources to bring to bear, and the long rest dependent classes don't dare use their resources".

In a 6-8 encounters, where 3 to 4 are tough fights model, when the fights happen, the short rest dependent classes can almost always use their abilities, and the long rest dependent classes can expect to be able to use up to one quarter of their resources without worrying they will run out of gas before a long rest can happen.

*a dungeons with 8 rooms could as easily be a forest without 8 areas of interest, or an urban area with 8 significant npc's to either speak to or overcome.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I disagree that balance revolves around 2-3 short rests per long rest and that number of encounters plays no role.

The simple truth is that classes with better at will attacks thrive when the number of rounds in the adventure day is high. Fewer hard encounters don't increase number of rounds as much as more easier encounters.
 

Salamandyr

Adventurer
I disagree that balance revolves around 2-3 short rests per long rest and that number of encounters plays no role.

The simple truth is that classes with better at will attacks thrive when the number of rounds in the adventure day is high. Fewer hard encounters don't increase number of rounds as much as more easier encounters.

Personally I haven't found characters with better at-will attacks "thriving" no matter how many rounds there are in the day, because no matter how good their at will attacks were, when that was all they could do, my players (and I, when I could play) were bored silly.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Saying that the DM can enforce a 6-8 encounter day seems irrelevant to the argument that the game should have been balanced around a lower number of assumed encounters per day.
The irrelevant thing is that some other number could have been chosen, since the number chosen was done so by way of surveying as many players as could be bothered to actually give input on the matter and then going with what the majority said they wanted or were used to.

3e assumed 4/day, and that fits with my experience of dungeoncrawling expeditions
And as a perfect counter-point to your experience, there is my experience that 12 encounters in a day of dungeon-crawling is a more common occurrence than 4 (in any version of the D&D game that isn't 4th, to be as specific as possible about my experiences).
[MENTION=40233]Salamandyr[/MENTION], I agree that there may be some benefit found in looking at Adventuring Day XP table, and the Multipart Encounters guideline, rather than the individual encounter XP budget or number of rests. Those two details actually present themselves as "more than this without a rest (of appropriate length for the guideline in question) is probably a bad idea" and are probably easier to follow in practice as well (I wouldn't know, considering I don't use the XP guidelines at all in running my games - and my party hits the 6 encounter mark more often than not even when some of those encounters are extremely dangerous).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Why are you incapable of admitting the slightest fault on the part of the official products?
There's always a sense of that when we discuss the current edition (or any edition or game, really). There are critics who refuse to see the good in it and make unreasonable, even flatly false accusations. There are apologists who refuse to see anything bad in it, and try to spin even the most botched bug as a 'feature.'

In this case, I'm afraid you're in at least as much danger of falling into the first category as Flamestrike is of the second.

Not policing the 5 minute adventuring day has been a bad idea since 1E. It got worse in 3E, slightly better (but still an issue) in 4E (at the cost of a feel of sameness), and is still an issue in 5E.
Resting 'early' has always been an issue. Different eds have dealt with it (or not) differently, or advised/expected/facilitated the DM dealing with it differently. Old-school expectations included things like random encounters to interrupt rests and changing risk/reward (to sum up a lot of factors) to discourage it. 3e didn't really offer anything new in that regard, and deepened the divide between daily and at-will classes in some ways, making it arguably 'worse.' 4e put all classes on the same resource schedule (so they could be balanced, mechanically, fairly consistently in spite of having unique features and powers) but encounter balance would still be thrown off by the 5MWD, so 'better, but a nearly-complete solution to only half the problem.

Sure, 5e made it 'worse' again, but, as promised, gives us 'crystal clear guidance' as to where the resource-varied classes will all more or less balance: 6-8 medium-to-hard encounters with 2-3 short rests, per day. That's pretty clear. What we do with that guidance is on us.

Where 5E differs from 4E is that by lengthening or shortening the AD, you impact the different classes differently, and play with encounter difficulty differently. While this makes it more of an art than a science to police, it has the advantage of allowing you the DM to create AD's that favor some classes (shorter ones for the long rest classes to shine) and longer ones that let the short rest classes (and champion and rogue) to shine. You can mix with party dynamic and power levels simply by adding (or removing) encounters or short rests.
Exactly. There's a level of nuance to dealing with the issue, if you want to deal with. You can stick to the guidelines and probably be OK, assuming a typical party and 'all other things equal,' or you can approach the impact of more/fewer encounters/rests as a tool - a unpredictable, multivariate tool, put a powerful one if you get a feel for it. You can use it to compensate for an imbalanced party, for one player having more system mastery than another, or to create a different tone or feel in the campaign, and so forth.

And it's just one of many such tools 5e gives the Empowered DM.

Saying that the DM can enforce a 6-8 encounter day seems irrelevant to the argument that the game should have been balanced around a lower number of assumed encounters per day.
Unless the reasoning for why it should have been balanced around fewer encounters included an assumption that the DM couldn't do so, of course.

The bright spark is that 5e class balance seems much more about '2-3 short rests per long rest' than '6-8 fights per long rest'; 3-4 fights/day does strongly favour encounter-long Dailies like Wildshape & Barbarian rage, but not specifically Daily powers over Short Rest powers.
That does look like a sort of secondary balance-point. 6-8 encounters roughly balances any/all of the PH classes. 3-4 harder encounters with the same number of short rest balances /most/, but not so much those with significant all-encounter dailies. If you don't have a class like that (or do, and the PC is underperforming) there you go, a nice alternative.

So turning SR powers into Encounter
powers by making a Short Rest ca 15 minutes instead of 60 minutes seems to be the solution;
that way they get used 3-4 times/day, once per Short Rest becomes once per (most) Encounters.
You could go all the way and literally make them Encounter powers. As soon as you roll initiative, they're back. Even 4e didn't actually do that, there was a 5 min short rest.

I disagree that balance revolves around 2-3 short rests per long rest and that number of encounters plays no role.

The simple truth is that classes with better at will attacks thrive when the number of rounds in the adventure day is high. Fewer hard encounters don't increase number of rounds as much as more easier encounters.
By the numbers, sure, at-wills perform better relative to rest-recharge powers the more rounds you have in the day. Something that needs to be taken into account. However, recharge powers have more flexibility about when they give their best performance, so they're likely to be more dramatic, spotlight-grabbing - and significant to success. That implies they need to be, by the numbers, 'weaker' in total, than the at-will alternatives, to really 'balance,' leaving the at-will-dependent types some chance to shine, rather than just making seemingly-trivial contributions on some rounds, or even the majority of rounds. It's very tricky, because both straightforward numerical contributions /and/ softer factors come into play. No game has ever done a great job of it, that includes every version of D&D. The closest a design has ever come is to merely side-step the issue by simply not using one or the other, or sticking to a fixed ratio among them across the board.
 

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