D&D 5E 6-8 encounters/day - how common is this?

JonnyP71

Explorer
I like people who run unbalanced games. It lets me play the strongest classes and builds guilt-free. :)

Is there really a 'strongest class' in 5E? And even knowing that we rarely stick to the 6-8 encounter recommendation, our DM is very unpredictable! We never know exactly when we will be able to rest, or how much we have to do beforehand.... Plus we don't have character 'builds' at our table - at least not in the way you are suggesting. We all roll 4d6 for stat generation, choose class/race, develop a background with the DM. Feats have to fit the manner in which the PC is roleplayed, and multiclassing is only allowed if it specifically fits background, story and theme of the PC - so no 'dipping' to get class abilities for mechanical reasons. Our Champion is the only multiclass character (F6/Bard1), and that was because he is portrayed as a flashy swashbuckler who cares intensely about his looks and image. A level of Bard made sense, and it made him a better performer during evening campfire sing-songs.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
I understand your complaint. What are you going to do about it?
My complaint is that there are vocal supporters on this forum that absolutely refuse to see problems with the breezy "just use the 6-8 encounter day" universal solvent.

That's not real advice. That's more like "to make the game work, just spend hours and hours fixing what WotC didn't do right in the first place" What I can do about it? Not much. Other than refusing to just take that "advice" lying down.

Not upset at you Meshon. Just wanted to give you a response. I got a vibe you asked to call me out for trying to change Wotc and the game by arguing on a forum board... which, if true, would be silly. I'm not that delusional :)
 

That's not real advice. That's more like "to make the game work, just spend hours and hours fixing what WotC didn't do right in the first place" What I can do about it? Not much. Other than refusing to just take that "advice" lying down.

Ive given you advice. I suggested you attempt to conform around 50 percent of your campaigns adventuring days to the 6-8/ 2 short rest limit (and let the gods deal with the other 50 percent). Ive given you at least a dozen generic hooks for how to do this. Ive explained why and even posted an entire adventure in its own thread aimed at 13th level PCs which sticks to this 6-8 encounter AD. Ive broken down the classes by relative power during shorter and longer AD's to show why this mechanism is important.

Ive shown you where in the DMG other advice is located with relation to policing the AD, including options to vary rests. Ive offered advice on using milestone resting as an alternative option.

What more advice do you need?
 

S'mon

Legend
DMing 5e does require more work and/or experience and/or raw talent than prior eds, which is bucking a long-term trend towards DMing becoming a less arcane(npi) task. That's the price of DM Empowerment, though, and it's unavoidable (and, IMHO, worth it).

But prior to 3e I never had a big problem with 5 minute adventuring days, fighter/wizard class imbalance, and suchlike. Wandering monsters were one big reason. I did see it in C&C adventures converted over from 3e though. The issue seems to be around 3e-style linear-series-of-encounters adventure design, where the PCs know they can retreat & rest. This design was carried over into 4e, where it was accommodated by the Short Rest mechanic. 5e is a bit of a hybrid of the earlier editions, it seems to encourage 5MAD more than 1e-2e or 4e, but less than 3e.
 

S'mon

Legend
That's why I finally just made short rests last 15 minutes and went back to the 4e assumption that they occur after every encounter.

I am strongly tempted to do this, but with a cap at 3 short rests/day. That should keep
the SR PCs balanced with the long-resters with typical 3-4 encounters per day of dungeoncrawling.

Edit: I've just proposed 15 minute short rests to my group. :)
 
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I run my game as I've suggest you run yours, I never fudge, and I've seen no 5th edition characters die - they are just that difficult to kill without intentionally going for the kill by continuing to attack downed characters and prevent other characters from healing/stabilizing them.

The solution there is easy: Have zero stupid battles.[/quote]

Look, you're suggesting I run a hexcrawl or sandbox style game based off my long term experience with DMing. I could probably do that if I wanted to, but look, this is exactly the point I'm making: If I want to run a sandbox or hexcrawl, where is the support from the game itself rather than a reliance on me knowing what I'm doing? Compare the DMG to Kevin Crawford's stuff. That has good support in both advice and tools for running a sandbox. The DMG has nothing. What if I want to run an episodic game? You're telling me that I'm doing it wrong and I should run a sandbox.

I'm just not seeing the GM tools, quality of life support or much else for any model of running the game. Ultimately I feel like with 5e if you don't already know what you're doing, you're SOL re: DM tools and supports.

With regards to other stuff like flat/unintersting encounters from 5E monsters, dumb situations caused by some monsters having huge alpha strikes and some caused by monsters just not being a threat but having huge sacks of hitpoints (animated armor!!) we clearly have different experiences of the game. You haven't seen player deaths - I've seen a bunch in a couple of long running games, and all of them have been what I would describe as stupid. Most common: Low level character gets knocked to low HP, then eats a next max damage hit (or a crit) and and dies. Second most common (and all other deaths!): Player gets dropped early by a high alpha monster, rolls a 1 on a death save and dies. I was intrested you said that you never intentionally go for the kill - often we find that the monsters will stop us from reviving our fallen team mates though because often they are standing on them in a situation in which they get dropped.

Edit: Also, for various reasons the groups I've played in have been bereft of clerics so the low level ranged healing spells haven't been common, but I bet I'd have seen about 30-40% less deaths with them. But we're not forcing people to have a particular spell for game balance... right?
 
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GameOgre

Adventurer
My complaint is that there are vocal supporters on this forum that absolutely refuse to see problems with the breezy "just use the 6-8 encounter day" universal solvent.

That's not real advice. That's more like "to make the game work, just spend hours and hours fixing what WotC didn't do right in the first place" What I can do about it? Not much. Other than refusing to just take that "advice" lying down.

Not upset at you Meshon. Just wanted to give you a response. I got a vibe you asked to call me out for trying to change Wotc and the game by arguing on a forum board... which, if true, would be silly. I'm not that delusional :)

I just don't see a issue with 6-8 encounters per full heal up. I'm not trying to say YOU don't have issues with it. I just personally do not.

In my game I decide (as the DM) when rests can happen. Now this does not mean that I decide when the player characters stop fighting and get in some rest....only when that rest is rewarding enough to give hit points back.

The party can take naps all day long but unless they have earned a short rest or long rest.....it isn't going to give them hit points back.

Now my players know that after two fights they can take a short rest and get hit points back. After four they can take another and after six they can often take a long rest. However it's not a guarantee that they can until after eight. So they plan accordingly.

It seems simple to us. Just like 2E where we got back only a few hit points per night but got to memorize magic. We like 5E more because we don't have to actually wait days and days to get everyone back on our feet and ready to head back into the fray.

What is hard about this?

Lets say the guys are out on the road, traveling across the world. They have about one encounter oer day so they know after the second day they could regain some hit points ect...after the fourth another and after the sixth perhaps a long rest.

Often in that case the party would plan on every three encounters getting to rest, actually most of the time they do. Because it sucks to not plan on that and then need it.


Now these rules and guidelines are based on building encounters right. Right meaning a good mix of easy and average encounters along with some harder ones. If I really make a encounter hard or god forbid double up on encounters well those encounters count for more than 1 encounter.

Also luck plays a factor. If my players start swinging and not hitting #$#$ and take a pounding maybe they will need me to give them a break on rests. Nothing sucks worse than a easy fight taking out all the parties resources and almost ending the fun because of lucky dice rolls right? I'm not here to punish the party, I would give them a break (It might cost them in story or might not if they were truly just the victim of bad dice rolls.)


Also: Short rests take 1 hour. Long rests take eight hours. This is our default system. HOWEVER we did house rule that it can take much shorter time than that is it's fun and dramatically cool to do that.

If after the seventh encounter for the day the party stands over the corpses of the enemy dragonmen catching there breath as the Dragonqueen(and arch Villain) slowly saunters down the stairs towards them laughing, I might very well give them a long rest on the spot and run a montage about there long journey from small farm to the great halls of the Dragonqueen in order to put right, the wrongs done to them.
 
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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
...but look, this is exactly the point I'm making: If I want to run a sandbox or hexcrawl, where is the support from the game itself rather than a reliance on me knowing what I'm doing?
It's in the design not being so fragile that making a mistake will actually end your campaign.

Nothing I've said to do requires advice outside that found in the 5th edition PHB, DMG, and MM.

Could there be more "how to run a game"? Certainly, but since running a good game is something so easy that 10-12 year olds can manage it without even as much assistance is present in the 5th edition of the game, it's not really something that is a "must have" in order for someone to figure out how to run a game - and since the larger portion of being a good DM is playing to your audience, advice can actually be more harm than good because the guy giving the advice (even me) doesn't know your group.

What if I want to run an episodic game? You're telling me that I'm doing it wrong and I should run a sandbox.
No, I'm not. You want an episodic game, run an episodic game - that has nothing to do with whether you run an episodic game while stressing over encounter balance numbers or you run an episodic game while being entirely unconcerned with encounter-building guidance beyond CR < Party Level = Ok.

I'm just not seeing the GM tools, quality of life support or much else for any model of running the game. Ultimately I feel like with 5e if you don't already know what you're doing, you're SOL re: DM tools and supports.
And yet 5th edition is the most supportive of new DMs out of any edition of D&D to date, because it gives you some options, tells you what matters (that you and your group have fun), and empowers you to use what works and change what doesn't - including outright ignoring any advice or guidelines that aren't meshing with your style.
Most common: Low level character gets knocked to low HP, then eats a next max damage hit (or a crit) and and dies.
Maybe try the option, included by way of the support you claim doesn't exist, to use average damage instead of rolling it for monster attacks.

I use that option for speed and to increase player ability to accurately assess how threatening an enemy is - as a result I don't have the problem you describe.

Second most common (and all other deaths!): Player gets dropped early by a high alpha monster, rolls a 1 on a death save and dies.
I assume you meant to say that the character failed 3 death saves (whether by rolling them, or by damage being dealt to the dying character), So there is nothing to say there beyond that yes, if the DM intends to kill a character it is likely that the character will die.

I was intrested you said that you never intentionally go for the kill - often we find that the monsters will stop us from reviving our fallen team mates though because often they are standing on them in a situation in which they get dropped.
Characters that are dying are less of a threat than characters that aren't, so monsters preferentially attack conscious characters unless there is some clear reason like mindless creatures trying to eat, or because I'm meaning to show the creatures particular thorough intent to kill off the party (which is only very rarely, because goals that aren't "kill all enemies" tend to be a bit more dramatic and interesting).


But we're not forcing people to have a particular spell for game balance... right?
You are right, we are not forcing that.

My group only has characters that use healing magic in about half of our campaigns - the only difference is that in campaigns with healing characters present hit dice are used less frequently.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Is there really a 'strongest class' in 5E? And even knowing that we rarely stick to the 6-8 encounter recommendation, our DM is very unpredictable! We never know exactly when we will be able to rest, or how much we have to do beforehand.... Plus we don't have character 'builds' at our table - at least not in the way you are suggesting. We all roll 4d6 for stat generation, choose class/race, develop a background with the DM. Feats have to fit the manner in which the PC is roleplayed, and multiclassing is only allowed if it specifically fits background, story and theme of the PC - so no 'dipping' to get class abilities for mechanical reasons. Our Champion is the only multiclass character (F6/Bard1), and that was because he is portrayed as a flashy swashbuckler who cares intensely about his looks and image. A level of Bard made sense, and it made him a better performer during evening campfire sing-songs.
You can optimize around unpredictability and rolled stats easily enough. Real powergamers aren't munchkins who are locked into a certain build or concept, they take what the system gives them and make it as strong as they can.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Ive given you advice. I suggested you attempt to conform around 50 percent of your campaigns adventuring days to the 6-8/ 2 short rest limit (and let the gods deal with the other 50 percent). Ive given you at least a dozen generic hooks for how to do this. Ive explained why and even posted an entire adventure in its own thread aimed at 13th level PCs which sticks to this 6-8 encounter AD. Ive broken down the classes by relative power during shorter and longer AD's to show why this mechanism is important.

Ive shown you where in the DMG other advice is located with relation to policing the AD, including options to vary rests. Ive offered advice on using milestone resting as an alternative option.

What more advice do you need?
Hello Flamestrike.

I am currently running Out of the Abyss.

How do I get to a situation where the party will ever reach 8 encounters per day, when the book direct me to make no more than three (3) random encounter rolls a day, with a maximum of 50% chance of meeting an actual monster for each.

No wait. I can fix this myself.

Why don't you instead explain why I have to break the clear instructions given by this official supplement? Thanks
 

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