Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'm kinda stuck on the idea that the low risk searching for a pre-magic item is used to add a high impact change to the campaign fiction that negates a player's goals by altering fundamental facts about the situation. Personally, I have zero interest in a playstyle where a failed shopping trip means that the world can fundamentally shift.

Failing on a high risk challenge should have big consequences. Failing to successfully locate a hammer you think it would be nice to have shouldn't.
 
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Gardens & Goblins

First Post
I'm kinda stuck on the idea that the low risk searching for a pre-magic item is used to add a high impact change to the campaign fiction that negates a player's goals by altering fundamental facts about the situation. Personally, I have zero interest in a playstyle where a failed shopping trip means that the world can fundamentally shift.

Failing on a high risk challenge should have big consequences. Failing to successfully locate a hammer you think it would be nice to have shouldn't.

Come now, you're missing the point of this thread!

Here we discuss a question regarding D&D, expressed through terms whose meaning/s can exist in a number of states, depending on the poster, context and their experience of a game system that can produce a vast number of permutations of play depending on the table and the players, which was either defined at the beginning of play, during play, was never defined and/or never experienced, until it was, all of which collapses to conform with a given poster's perspective when finally perceived - unless, of course, they don't or won't.

Love it! Quantum roleplaying - a game state that collapses to conform to a single state once the act of perceiving is made. Which is wrong unless it isn't, for a given value of wrong.

Also, railroads. And Gygax said so (unless he didn't)! :D
 
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And I'm using the word in ways that I've encountered it being used in (mostly online) discussions.

It's a word whose usage varies, mostly depending on the extent to which the user recognises the significant presence of GM force in relation to outcomes.

This is something that I recognised in the OP, when I acknowledge that my usage is probably broader than some others'. I think this is mostly because I am more sensitive to the presence of GM force in relation to outcomes than some other posters.

One in which the GM doesn't shape outcomes towards a pre-conceived narrative. There are various reasonably well-known techniques to facilitate this eg "say 'yes' or roll the dice"; in the case of failure, narrating those consequences in the manner often called "fail forward"; whether the check succeeds or fails, "let it ride" (ie the outcome is binding on all participants until some subsequent failure puts it back into play).

I've provided plenty of examples in this thread of how these techniques work. See eg posts 286, 287 for some of the most recent ones.

Really? Online discussions of D&D or other styles of RPGs?

It seems to me that under your definition 99% of D&D games would fall under "railroading", making it a not very useful distinction.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Which was the whole point of the example: you can have twists, hearbreaking surprises, conspiracies, etc, without having to plan it in advance - it can be managed as part of the narration of consequences of failure. (As the OP illustrates, you can also have searching or perception checks, and frame and resolve them in a meaningful way, without it having to be the case that the GM has noted in advance the contents of the area being searched or looked at.)

That I completely understand, and wholeheartedly agree.

Sort of seems like the obvious essence of a lot of roleplaying, at least as I experienced it growing up. We riff off each other, regardless of which side of the "GM screen" (using that metaphorically) one sits on.

I suspect any contention you've encountered is due to your use of "railroading." While it may not be a loaded word for you nor myself, I think others get triggered by it since it's often been used as a derogatory label.
 

Gardens & Goblins

First Post
I suspect any contention you've encountered is due to your use of "railroading." While it may not be a loaded word for you nor myself, I think others get triggered by it since it's often been used as a derogatory label.

Totally agree - we're trying to assign definitions to subjective experiences and wondering why others may not value such terms in the same way.

The discussion seems to require us to accept a particular given definition of the term 'railroading'; a particular style of play and various terms used to describe aspects of play. And until folks agree to do so, things won't move forwards.

Of course, if folks don't want to accept a particular given definition of a term - or a style of play, so be it. Perhaps a thread, 'What does railroading mean to you?', complete with a snazzy poll, would help build some common ground.

...and then perhaps, 'Which of these terms describe your table's/group's style of play?'

Then, maybe, just maybe, we can establish a consensually agreed upon framework in which to continue a discussion based on the particulars of the elements featured in said framework.

Though I'm still up for a RPG Dictionary. Enforced with extreme prejudice.

[sblock]And for the love of monkeys, lets stop citing Gygax. He played the game his way. Each of us play it ours. Appeals to authority never go down well.[/sblock]
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
That I completely understand, and wholeheartedly agree.

Sort of seems like the obvious essence of a lot of roleplaying, at least as I experienced it growing up. We riff off each other, regardless of which side of the "GM screen" (using that metaphorically) one sits on.

I suspect any contention you've encountered is due to your use of "railroading." While it may not be a loaded word for you nor myself, I think others get triggered by it since it's often been used as a derogatory label.

I agree with all of this. I am not really interested in the exact labels we call things. What interests me about this thread is really diving deep and analyzing the moment to moment decision making process we utilize as GMs and how that can affect the culture of play for the very real people sitting at a very real table. When I run a game my primary interest is in enabling the other players to make choices. For me, meaningful decision making that can effect this shared fictional space we play in is the heart of what makes tabletop roleplaying such an interesting medium. Do I go this way or that way? How does that affect the fiction? What real world impact does that have on the other players? Are we saying interesting things? How could we say more interesting things?

I happen to think analysis of what we are doing can only serve to improve the way we do things. If something is worth doing it must be worth doing better, whatever that means for the people involved.
 

Problem is, if we can't agree on the macro definitions analyzing the specific moments becomes kinda pointless. :)

Well, examining a single parameter of a complex system (say albedo in earth's climate system) is not only useful to understand the latter, but infinitely less entangled! We don't need to even have a conversation about the earth climate system to discuss/analyze albedo.

The same goes for an instance of GM Force and a campaign that can be classified as a railroad. It can be discerned if "this is an instance of play where (a) the GM suspends/subordinates the action resolution mechanics to impose their preferred outcome or (b) undermines the impact on play of a/the player(s) thematically/strategically/tactically significant choices (these choices could be at build-stage or during play)."

Whatever your threshold is for a full campaign to be the equivalent of a railroad doesn't need to be answered to examine that.

I'll just mention [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6846794]Gardens & Goblins[/MENTION] here as this addresses their posts as well (if a bit sideways).

Given what I've read from you throughout your many (often very detailed) posts here and elsewhere, and what I've kind of gleaned as being your DMing style, I'd be very interested in seeing how you'd run 1e or a near variant. My guesses are:

1. It would be a good, fun game
2. It would be vastly different from mine (which I'd like to think is also good, and fun) even though we're using the same basic system. For one thing, I suspect you're much more mechanics-first than I am. (see below)

1. Thanks :) I'm not sure if you'd enjoy it, but the optimism is noted!
2. My 1e AD&D games make heavy use of the granular hex-crawl and wilderness survival mechanics. As a result, its much more gritty and likely too laborious for folks that aren't keen on that. But the guys that I have historically GMed it for love that. I wouldn't call them "mechanics-first", but they're definitely "mechanics-intensive" (as 1e is, especially with WSG). My guess is a lot of people currently posting on these boards wouldn't enjoy my 1e games so much.

Done.

Lots of questions and observations.

Swell!

First, to nip in the bud any distracting talk of the crevasse in the DW example or the chute trap in the B/X example (which put the Elf alone in that situation) possibly being a form of railroading why not for the sake of this discussion say the Elf was singlehanding all along: a solo adventure where he'd reached that place during the normal course of exploration.

You could say that as well, but I can easily assuage those concerns that the emergence of that situation in the DW game (where it actually unfolded) was an instance of GM Force.

The players failed (6 or less) their Scout move as part of their Undertake a Perilous Journey move. That yielded them missing a dangerous hazard. Their dog-sled ran over a glacial crevasse that was covered by a snow bridge. This almost led to complete disaster as the sled went through (with nearly all of the passengers falling in). While the situation turned out ok for everyone else, the Elven Arcane Duelist depicted here had a series of 7-9 on various moves to try to aid other people in getting out (or not falling in). When it finally came to him pulling himself out (hanging by a thread at the bottom of the sled), he had no strength left. He rolled a 2 on his Defy Danger (Str) move, thus sending him down into the inky blackness for a splash-down in the underground river that emptied him out in the Earthmaw basement.

As far as the PCs getting lost/split-up in a B/X dungeon, that isn't an issue of Force either. I've had that many-a-times. One of the classic hazards that GMs are expected to stock their dungeon with are pit traps:

Basic; DM 48
Pit: A section of floor gives way, and (one, some, or all) characters fall in, taking (ld4, ld6, ld8, ld10) damage. The pit may have something at the bottom (spikes for more damage, deep water, or a monster).

It may be a chute, leading down (a oneway ride) to the next dungeon level.

I'm a big (huge is probably more like it) fan of chute traps that go down to the next dungeon level. So this could easily have been an instance of that.

I've actually got to get out, so I'll get to the rest of your post later this evening. I'll focus in on a couple things in that post.

Sorry for cutting things in half.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For some definitions of "easier", maybe.

Your account of the players needing a "Plan B" reinforces, to me at least, that essentially here we're talking about a puzzle. Attempted solution A failed, so we try solution B instead.
I call it trial and error; and see it in many ways as part of the game: see also my (probably far too) many posts in here re a) magic item identification and b) metagame knowledge vs. player knowledge, where I also support trial-and-error play rather than just having information handed to you (items) and-or pre-loaded (metagame).

Well, the sort of surprise you describe catches the players unawares and undermines or in some other undesired way reframes the experiences of the PCs. In the sort of approach to GMing, and to RPGing, that I am describing, that is a type of failure. The PC's intentions in action have not been realised. That is an appropriate consequence of failure. It's not just something for the GM to impose on the situation.
And here I disagree, which by now is probably rather obvious: I see it as well within the DM's purview to drop all sorts of surprises on the characters...some good, some bad. Where it becomes railroading is when such is done out of spite (I've seen this) or to force the party to stay on mission rather than do something else.

No! No! No!

I - the GM - did not know either. The likelihood of the brother having been evil all along was not established as an element of the fiction until I narrated the failure of the attempt to find the mace in the ruin.
OK - I didn't realize this was an element introduced on the fly.

And that makes it an even bigger problem that it already was! Why?

Because now every interaction that has ever happened with the brother in previous play has just been invalidated. He was evil all along, it seems, but any previous interactions with him didn't have that sitting there as part of his backstory and-or personality (known only to you-as-GM as he is, I believe, an NPC) and thus couldn't be a part of driving what he did or said. In other words, the internal consistency of that character just took one hell of a beating.

This is what [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION], [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION] and I are trying to get at in talking about a game in which everyone, even the GM, plays to find out what happened.

And this is why I have been asking [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] what exactly he takes the connection to be between prior planning and depth of the shared fiction. And why I reacted so strongly to your suggestion that a player-driven game, in which the GM does not adjudicate by reference to secret backstory, cannot involve surprises.
Because when a GM is at the helm and knows the surprises ahead of time she can filter what happens in the game (outside what the players do with their own characters) through those unknown elements and thus keep things somewhat consistent.

For instance, vis-a-vis the brother: for all we know, his conduct towards his brother (which up to that point had occurred only in backstory, and mostly involved teaching him magic) was motivated by evil. Maybe he was preparing his brother to be a worthy sacrifice to the balrog!
And again, if this had been known all along there could have been some consistency; and possibilities for roleplay that are now lost: maybe the evil brother let something slip at some point, for example. Can't happen now - it's too late.

If it turns out, in play, that the brother was evil all along, well that throws some new light on all his past dealings. But clearly those past dealings don't preclude him having been evil all along (because, if they did, then finding the cursed black arrows would not be a tenable failure, because it would contradict backstory that has already been established at the table).
You're saying the arrows represent a failure; I'd say they represent a success of a sort: it's confirmed that the brother was bent all along. Now whether or not that's something the party wants to know is irrelevant - they know it now.

That said, it's hard to contradict backstory that doesn't exist even when it probably should have.

But the claim that this sort of thing can't be done unless the GM works it all out in advance is simply not true.
It can be done provided nobody cares too much about the validity of or consistency with what has gone before.

Your example of the taxed townsfolk is another one where, until we know how that was established at the table, and what its significance is to the participants, we can't say anything about it from the point of view of GM authority, player influence over the shared fiction, railroading, etc.

For instance, if the PCs return to town and the GM frames them into a scene of sullen townsfolk, with the idea in mind that the sullen-ness is due to raised taxes, is that railroading? If the adventure the PCs have just returned from is one in which they won a social conflict with the baron over the level of taxation, then probably yes - it's just fiating a failure over the top of the players' success.

If the state of the village and the wellbeing of the villagers is something the players (via their PCs) have a clear commitment to, then it doesn't look like railroading but rather framing: it's setting up the situation with which, presumably, the PCs are going to engage. (By pushing the baron to lower taxes.)

If the village is just somewhere the PCs are passing through, then it seems to be simply colour, and nothing of any significance is going to turn on it.
What I had in mind was somewhere between colour and framing, I suppose, as in my example I was thinking (but didn't type where I should have done) the PCs hadn't had much if anything to do with the Baron up till now but they had been to the town numerous times before: I'd envisioned it as their home base. It's changed while the party was out in the field but said change has nothing to do with the party's previous actions in any way.

But, it's still the DM doing something off-screen that has effects on-screen - so is it framing, railroad, or neither? (I say "neither", it's just the world moving on...)

Re: character secrets:

That's a different thing altogether. Speaking purely for myself, I find that Robin Laws gives good advice in this respect in Over the Edge: the game generally becomes more fun when the players are in on the secret even if their PCs are not.
I've never read Robin Laws but the more I hear about him (her?) the less I'm interested; this statement merely adds to that feeling as I probably couldn't disagree with it more.

Player knowledge and character knowledge should be the same, particularly with regards to the other characters! (it's the metagame business again: Laws is clearly a fan of metagame knowledge, where I am not).

Lanefan
 

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