D&D 5E What is "broken" in 5e?

Tony Vargas

Legend
5th Edition is not 4th Edition, nor 3rd
Nor 1st or 2nd, yet it is meant to be 'for' fans of each....
- as one of WoTC stated design goals, it harkens back to the days of 1st and 2nd Edition, when CR didn't exist, guidance on GM'ing was far scarcer and less rigid and creative flexibility within the rules was consequently greater.

I for one think that's great, and I applaud WoTC for making 5th Edition the way it is.
While 5e does a great job of harkening back to the classic game, it also /does/ provide CR and guidelines for encounter creation & encounters/day. For those who want them. (Though, I guess I agree that ignoring those guidelines can work better for some of us.)

More would be gained if D&D would finally stop with the dungeon crawler mentality with combat as only worthwhile activity and do the final step in becoming a RPG where combat is just one part out of many.
D&D has been there, and done that.

That way you would not need a X combat per day recommendation.
Stunningly, the two are not mutually exclusive - and the guideline in encounters/day, not necessarily combats, but any challenge that can put similar pressure on party resources.

There was a thread a while ago about things you liked/disliked in 5e, and while it's not "broken", a dislike I had is that Inspiration is so bolted-on and easy to ignore instead of being more integral.
I disagree. Not that it's bolted-on, but rather than I'm pleased it's easy to ignore.

(And part of it is that the implementation is a bit broken, with too much for the DM to memorize .)
Point. That's part of the reason I ignore it - I have enough to do without monitoring everyone's RPing 'in character.' Though, in general, I don't much care for enforcing mechanical carrot/stick RP-encouragement. JMHO.
 

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The harsh truth is that +5 is equally powerful and desirable at every level. While the cost of a first level spell slot only diminishes as you level up.

Yes, but monster attack bonuses scale with level, and PC AC scales so slowly it effectively doesn't scale. Sure, you'll gain 1-2 AC when you upgrade armor past starting gear (or invest in Dex for light armor characters), but after that AC is essentially fixed barring magic items. Leastwise, you hit the non-magical cap about level 4, IMX. That's why AC bonuses are so good in 5e. You're scaling something you normally can't. The AC of PCs doesn't scale, but the attack bonus of monsters certainly does. HP and resources like shield are what scale for PCs, so shield scales by being cheaper, meaning it represents the PCs getting more durable.

PC AC: Incidental to minimal scaling with level.

Monster Attack [Bonus, Number, and Damage]: Moderate scaling with CR overall.

Now, shield works against subsequent attacks, so it does help mitigate those. However, what shield actually says is something like this:

"You have 95% immunity to attacks of CR 1 creatures until the start of your next turn.
You have 85% immunity to attacks of CR 5 creatures until the start of your next turn.
You have 75% immunity to attacks of CR 10 creatures until the start of your next turn.
You have 65% immunity to attacks of CR 15 creatures until the start of your next turn.
You have 55% immunity to attacks of CR 20 creatures until the start of your next turn."

Obviously, you can manipulate that with full plate and actual armor, but in the lion's share of cases, this is what the ability says.

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This scaling problem is the same root cause of the problem with the -5/+10. PC attack bonuses scale. PC damage scales (via number of attacks, additional abilities, etc.). Monster ACs, by and large, do not scale. Monster HP scale. So, you end up with:

Attack bonus (scales) vs AC (does not scale)

Damage (scales) vs HP (scales heavily)

The -5/+10 allows you to trade a resource which scales and is opposed by an enemy resourse that does not scale (attack bonus) and instead apply it to an enemy resouce that does scale. That's the problem.

By the time you reach level 10, you're very likely to have nearly capped your attack bonus. You can easily have +5 at level 1 (2 prof + 3 ability) and by level 10 you'll have +9 or +11 with a bow (4 prof + 5 ability + 2 archery style).

The opportunity cost of taking a feat, so lauded by OP, is completely subsumed by either the Fighter's ASI at 6th or the Variant Human.

Now, yes, for monsters AC scales with CR somewhat -- low CR averages mid/low teen AC and mid/high CR averages mid/high teen AC -- but, almost any given AC can be found at more or less any given CR, with the extremes obviously housing the exceptions. Outside of dragons and humanoids in magical full plate and shield, however, essentially nothing has an AC over 20. A CR 20 Pit Fiend has AC 19. A CR 21 Lich has AC 17. Yet a CR 1/2 Hobgoblin has AC 18, which is just scale + shield (85gp) or chain + shield (60gp). That's starting gear to most PCs. What really scales with high CR creatures? HP. High CR creatures ramp up the HP to very high levels (from less than 10 to well over 200 or 300) and do so to outpace the attack and damage gains that PCs gain from higher levels.

Note that the math here is actually kind of close. If the feats were -5/+7, for example, they would never be worth it unless you were throwing shuriken. This is because bounded accuracy gives us a fairly narrow window for design of this type of effect.

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Note that this is the exact problem that a lot of people have with saving throw DC scaling. It's safe to assume that the non-proficient saving throws you have at level 1 will never increase. Put a 13 in Wisdom for your Fighter? You'll have a +1 Wisdom save from level 1 to 20. Yet saving throw DCs increase very quickly, starting at DC 12 or 13, by level 10 are virtually guaranteed to be DC 17, and at high level are DC 19.

Imagine if we gave a feat to spellcasters that said, "-5 spell DC or spell attack for +65% damage." That's about as bad as -5/+10 ever gets. Usually it's +90% to +110% damage for the accuracy penalty throughout most of the game. How often would you take that?

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In the end, though, while I feel like the -5/+10 ability is a mathmatically sketchy mechanic, I think the core problem is twofold:

1. It encourages players to determine the mathmatically optimal choice during combat for each opponent. Take this formula:

Code:
$AverageDamage * (21 + $AttackBonus - $TargetAC) / 20 < ($AverageDamage + 10) * (16 + $AttackBonus - $TargetAC) / 20

If that's true, then it's mathmatically correct to Power Attack. Yes, you can simplify that down to an alternate form, but even in 5e there are modifiers that come and go and the target's AC is always a bit of a guess. The bottom line is that -5/+10 encourages players to stop playing the game in order to do some algebra. That is not conducive to quick play, and quick play is one of 5e's design goals. That alone makes it a badly designed feat.

2. It's not situational enough. Or, rather, it's applies to too many situations. Most feats offer abilities that are only good some of the time, or offer something that's always good but on a limited basis. -5/+10 is good enough often enough to come up every combat and often good enough every round. And that's before we look at the other abilities of the two feats. And if you can get a high attack bonus such as from Archery style, or get advantage consistently such as a Barbarian, you just always use it every combat all the time. That's silly, and it's supplanting class abilities.

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Oh, and for what it's worth, the whole, "Feats are optional rules. If you find them overpowered then just don't play with them," argument: I'd just like to point out that this is essentially a rephrasing of the Oberoni Fallacy. Just because you don't have to use a rule doesn't mean it's not broken. After all, the exact same argument can be used to defend a feat which says, "You gain +2 Strength or Dexterity, up to the maximum of 20. Your melee and ranged attacks deal +10 damage." If WotC published that feat in a book, you'd hear a very large number of people of complaining that it was overpowered, game breaking, or otherwise horrible game design. Being optional doesn't make a rule immune to critique or criticism. As far as rule balancing is concerned, not using an optional rule is functionally the same as banning a not-canonically-optional rule or otherwise employing Rule 0 to modify a rule.

Indeed, the epitome of optional rules -- the 3e prestige class -- is probably the foremost counter example to why optional rules need to be balanced. We all know that 3.x prestige classes varied wildly in power, and created a power creep that the game never recovered fromm. Even 2e suffered from this, with kits like Bladesinger.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
Yes, but monster attack bonuses scale with level, and PC AC scales so slowly it effectively doesn't scale.
This was a very long post, but its the first sentence that gets to the point of it. Just because you can't guarantee a 95% effectiveness doesn't mean the shield has become worthless. Even in your 55% scenario the shield does help you avoid a 30% scenario

But to play devil's advocate, let's bring in hit points into this - your hp scales much faster than the damae output of most monsters.

Sure you can say a level 1 character can lose 100% of his health in a single swipe, and thus Shield is very valuable then. While a high-level character seldom does lose 100% of her health in even all the swipes of the monster, and thus Shield is less valuable.

But I never said it was appropriate for a level 17 wizard to have to spend a level 9 slot to gain his +5, just like a level 1 wizard needs to spend a level 1 slot to gain her +5.

What I'm saying is that keeping to the exact same cost gets ridiculously cheap with time.

Your calculations can't argue against that. All you can show is that the cost probably should go down as you level up. Nothing in your calculations say it is appropriate for that cost to stay the same in absolute terms (and thus go down to practically being free in relative terms).

If the spell only helped you against a single attack, there might be an argument to be made, that this is sufficiently insignificant at high levels to justify the then very small cost. But the spell doesn't.

Note: I'm not saying this because I think the game is catastrophically broken either way. I'm just responding to your post which I read as using math to convey objectiveness, which seldom holds up to scrutiny.

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All your other points I agree to, and I've given you an XP for your post.
 

knasser

First Post
Oh, and for what it's worth, the whole, "Feats are optional rules. If you find them overpowered then just don't play with them," argument: I'd just like to point out that this is essentially a rephrasing of the Oberoni Fallacy. Just because you don't have to use a rule doesn't mean it's not broken. After all, the exact same argument can be used to defend a feat which says, "You gain +2 Strength or Dexterity, up to the maximum of 20. Your melee and ranged attacks deal +10 damage." If WotC published that feat in a book, you'd hear a very large number of people of complaining that it was overpowered, game breaking, or otherwise horrible game design. Being optional doesn't make a rule immune to critique or criticism. As far as rule balancing is concerned, not using an optional rule is functionally the same as banning a not-canonically-optional rule or otherwise employing Rule 0 to modify a rule.

Very true and I'd also like to add a further comment on the "Optional" feats. You need a considerable level of expertise to understand whether or not you should use it. New to the game a player just used the Variant Human rules to get a feat at first level. They told me everyone they played with used Feats and it was a bit boring without them. I didn't know one way or another and figured the game designers had balanced it and it was optional mainly on the grounds of complexity. I saw that they were giving up a bunch of stat bonuses for it so said "sure." I can understand rules being optional for complexity, for flavour and for play style. I'm a little miffed to find that their 1st level Warlock is now better in Melee than the Paladin. Making something Optional does not excuse poor balancing because most GMs don't have the level of analysis or experience to know what is and isn't. I didn't.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Making something Optional does not excuse poor balancing because most GMs don't have the level of analysis or experience to know what is and isn't. I didn't.
It isn't unreasonable to assume that people are only going to engage optional rules when they are aware of how that option will affect their game.

You're effectively complaining that WotC put optional rules in the book at all, which is a bit unreasonable given that the point of the PHB is to expand the basic game (which they released first, and for free) with more options.
 

knasser

First Post
It isn't unreasonable to assume that people are only going to engage optional rules when they are aware of how that option will affect their game.

There are problems hidden by your phrasing. For example, "aware of how that option will affect their game" actually translates to "requires an extensive knowledge and understanding of the mechanical aspects of the game to realise not only how it will affect game balance but how much it will". I'm going to stand my ground on it being unreasonable to require very advanced knowledge to gauge the outcome of what is presented without warning and the appearance of balance. I figured it was optional because it added complexity, not because it threw out of whack relative power between characters and screwed up monster balancing.

You're effectively complaining that WotC put optional rules in the book at all

No I am not. I'm complaining that the rules are very unbalancing without any warning of that.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I wish they would fix Sharpshooter. It's too good, but I doubt the game designers will do so even though it is very clearly too good a feat. It not only has an added damage component that synergizes very well with the Archery fighting style, but bit eliminates all the DM tools to limit ranged attacks in the vast majority of combats.
 

This is my biggest gripe with 5e. It's the reason that I've often said that short rests don't work for us.

In my primary group that still plays regularly, we run a big group. 7 or 8 players. Additionally, we don't like easy encounters. They're always Deadly++. If the module says that for a party of 5 there should be a troll, we run it such that there's 2 trolls. And 2 more that were out on patrol that show up in the third round. This means that regular encounters just get rolled because we always expect bad situations to get much worse. Our adventuring days are 2-3 combat encounters, with some single encounter days and some 4 encounter days being spread about. 6-8? That's just laughable.

We've played this way -- in the same group with largely the same people -- for over 20 years. We didn't change for 3e. We didn't change for 4e. We're not changing for 5e. We like the tension it adds. We don't like encounters that don't really challenge the party. They're a waste of game time. Adventuring is dangerous business, and you don't start out by travelling to the dungeon that says "Appropriate For Level 1 Adventurers" on a sign outside the door even if that's what it says on the module cover.

It does create a real problem, however, because short rest classes are terrible if you get 0-1 short rests a day. As you progress in levels, you tend to short rest less and less as it is, but if you're not getting your requisite 2 short rests a day, then long rest classes get significantly better.

There needs to be a way for a DM to manipulate the encounter rate without breaking the class balance between long and short rest classes.

The gritty realism variant.

Or implement a milestone rest variant.
 

I wish they would fix Sharpshooter. It's too good, but I doubt the game designers will do so even though it is very clearly too good a feat. It not only has an added damage component that synergizes very well with the Archery fighting style, but bit eliminates all the DM tools to limit ranged attacks in the vast majority of combats.

This confuses me. I can take or leave an argument that the damage bonus is too great, but I don't see how it eliminates DM tools. The only thing it eliminates is A) range penalties, and B) 1/2 and 3/4 cover. Full cover, wind wall, actual walls, darkness, stealth... all the things I would think of as actual DM tools to limit ranged attacks are untouched.
 

knasser

First Post
This confuses me. I can take or leave an argument that the damage bonus is too great, but I don't see how it eliminates DM tools. The only thing it eliminates is A) range penalties, and B) 1/2 and 3/4 cover. Full cover, wind wall, actual walls, darkness, stealth... all the things I would think of as actual DM tools to limit ranged attacks are untouched.

Cover and range are ways that a DM limits the effectivenes of ranged attacks. The first and least objectionable ways, I would say.
 

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