Hack Or Heartbreaker?

How best to structure your own RPG? It’s not a new dilemma. Back in the day games publishers always sought to innovate, whether that be a relatively small change, like adding spell points to a D&D chassis, or something more fundamental, like dispensing with class and level entirely, making skills more central to the game. Turning over the box or book of a game in the 80s you would usually see...


How best to structure your own RPG? It’s not a new dilemma. Back in the day games publishers always sought to innovate, whether that be a relatively small change, like adding spell points to a D&D chassis, or something more fundamental, like dispensing with class and level entirely, making skills more central to the game. Turning over the box or book of a game in the 80s you would usually see an excited description of the unique innovations within; no alignment! Personalised magic! Just d6s! Play an animal! Be evil!

Later, publishers hit upon the notion of a core system that could power multiple games. The next step was to open up that system for others to play with, in the hope that eventually there might be one game system to rule them all. D20 looked like it might actually achieve that at one point, but soon enough other companies followed suit. Now there are dozens of open games systems that the nascent publisher can use to boost their ideas into reality.

As a first step for me and my homebrewed game, I had to decide which route to take. Early on it became clear to me that my best system ideas were built on the shoulders of games I’d played over the years. Like many gamers I have binders full of house rules and other things I had done to tinker with my engine of choice. I had fewer ideas about systems built from the ground up. My decision was clear; I was going to work with an open gaming template.

Perhaps the most appealing thing about pre-existing mechanics is the mental space it gives you to apply your creativity to the things outside of the rules. The story, the flavour, the setting and the presentation. These are the parts of the game where the adjectives come to life. The rule themselves are merely the nuts and bolts, that’s why they call them mechanics.

Having made that decision, the harder decision presented itself; which licence to go with? Wizards of the Coast supplied the hobby with the OGL back in 200O, and that’s powered so many other options. In the end I wanted to stay close to fantasy, and my favourite relation in the D&D family has long been 13th Age. This game has its own SRD, called the Archmage Engine, and it’s one I'm more than passingly familiar with. So, that has become the skeleton of my system.

Staying true to that choice hasn’t always been easy. Every time I pick up a new game I find something interesting that I want to paste into my work. I love the downtime activities in Blades in the Dark. I love the equipment packages in Into the Odd. It’s easy to get distracted and end up with a game burdened like the mule in Buckaroo. Must resist!

So with the SRD in one window, and a blank doc in another, it was time to bring it all to life.
 

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Is this really true? A lot of pretty innovative games came out in the first decade of the twenty-first century.

I suppose you're probably right on the timing. A lot of the discussion on game design that began in the 90s continued through the d20 3.0 era. I'm just reacting to walking into game stores (back when they still had reasonable RPG collections) and seeing almost nothing by d20 nonsense.

To give an example: The Wheel of Time d20. What the? I mean, seriously. It needs its own system. Or at least to use something somewhat suitable. Just grabbing d20 because it's there is a disservice to the fiction.

In the sake of fairness, you should also consider the games that you gave up on after just a few sessions because the mechanics just did not work. Or games that you never started, because you could tell just by reading, that it wasn't going to work out.

The OGL lets someone get their own setting out there, so you can play in it at all, without suffering through the bad mechanics of designers who don't know what they're doing. Even if d20 isn't the ideal system to perfectly capture the experience of Synnibarr, it's still probably better than the proprietary systems they actually published using.

This is true. Some game systems just suck. But the question is whether the designers of those systems were really only interested in getting a setting out and just couldn't make a good system, or whether they wanted to make a unique system and just had issues pulling it off.

But anecdotally, if something is d20 (and not D&D) it's a real hard sell for me to even look at it. I'm playing Mutants & Masterminds now because a friend is running it, but I wouldn't run it myself. I'm enjoying it because we're using it as one part of a system exploration game--we're doing three or more stories with the same characters using different systems to get experience with them and more directly be able to compare and contrast. Long term though, I'd do something else.

One major division that still seems unresolved is the level based vs. skill based. I expect that will never coalesce since each has specific advantages that will be more appropriate in different settings.

Some people like old computer games. I still think Ultima 7 was one of the best games ever made. That doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. In fact, it's problems are probably such that people who didn't grow up in an era where is was relatively new would find it too old to enjoy, just like I can't really play Ultima 4, as much as I'd like to.

Despite the interest in such games, they are obsolete technology. We know how to design better now. I'm not talking about Skyrim's first person play and better graphics. That's newer tech, but it doesn't obsolete older styles. I'm talking about things like knowing to make inventory management not be a hassle, better user interfaces, etc.

Older RPGs are built on obsolete tech. (I think every version of D&D includes a good helping of obsolete tech.) Class and level limited design is obsolete tech. You can provide all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks by, say, including optional templates to enable emulation of classes and leveled advancement without having any of the limitations and hitches involved in it.

When d20 OGL came out, it basically re-entrenched design features that had been obsolete (classes and levels are only one element) for a decade as the norm. Everyone* else had moved on with their design before the OGL came out. It was a step backwards for RPG design.

*Hyperbole

RPG's are able to ignore some of these common conventions in the name of better matching their theme, but those that ignore too many of them risk becoming more of a niche game and limit their widespread appeal.

Half of those conventions are obsolete and need to be relegated to the nostalgia zone. Not that I'm saying that there shouldn't be a nostalgia zone! I'm always going to like D&D, but even my favorite 5e is an antique I enjoy like 8-bit Nintendo. The point is that the nostalgia zone can be recognized for what it is, and then not get in the way of future design improvements.

But OTH, as an indie publisher, using an SRD helps get your work out to a built-in audience.

Because while some look for innovation, many more look for something "different but the same."

I could see that. Every now and again I try some newer but retro-designed video game like Treasure Adventure Game.

I think, and maybe this is where my issues are, that many people aren't aware they are playing obsolete tech. The glut of OGL materials has deprived them of the chance to see newer role-playing tech and creative designs. Sure, maybe they won't like any of it and will find 8-bit is all they want. But they ought to be given a chance to see that for themselves.

I think I would disagree with the notion that D20 discouraged creativity. What it did do, IMHO is two fold:

It allows folks with strong settings to wrap their amazing story around a generic engine that, despite its faults, was accessible to most gamers. Which means the plethora of D20 games overshadowed the very real creativity that coming around on the fringes.

It cemented to a degree a determination in indie--style gamers to actually build the games they wanted play and wanted others to play. D20 created or encouraged a counter culture that to some degree rejected setting, but mostly rejected the old notions of system in favor of stuff that would work for you.

Of course it also gave WoTC a leg up on other companies. Some of them weathered that storm and others did not. Now of course we have FATE and Savage Worlds with their own versions of an OGL. We have a d100 OGL via RQII. Chaosium is bringing RQ and Glorantha back together. I think the industry is what it is today, full color $50 hard backs, because the D20 OGL showed people that game design was not solely the creation of an elite class of game designers (it never was that, but that is a topic for another day...).

Makes sense. I'm not even saying that the OGL(s) were bad for the hobby overall. I am saying that there are drawbacks that we are still feeling the effects of.

I think 5e is better than 3e for this kind of thing, but 3.x was still a good system. You might note though, that many companies that used it for a 1st edition, moved onto new things with the 2nd ed. of that game.

That's good to hear...unfortunately this is the first I've heard of it. I tuned out when saw a game was using d20, so they'd have had to put forth a bit more effort to let me know they were doing something different.
 

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Brodie

Explorer
I personally don't understand the hate (strong word, but I couldn't think of anything else) towards class/level-based games. Leveling I can understand to a degree; you gain enough xp and you ding a new level and suddenly you're so much better than you were before. That's jarring and unrealistic. But I REALLY don't like (old) World of Darkness as I have no concrete idea of just how powerful my character is or isn't. Meanwhile, L5R has a system method of ranking up abilities with xp, but it also have levels (called Ranks), and you get a new technique at your new rank. Some L5R gms will require you to train for a bit before you can access that. Much as I love Fate Core, it places third after D20 OGL and L5R. If I'm numbering favorites, that is.

Back to classes, though... Classes are just a mainstay in culture. Look at ANY fantasy novel/series and most times you can fit characters into classic D&D classes. Same applies to sci-fi, but a little more loosely since there really aren't clearly defined, trope-ish classes for sci-fi. But sci-fi tends to have their own rogues, fighters, doctors, heavy-weapon-toting bad asses, smooth talkers, specialists, and occasionally a holy person. I could be talking about Dark Matter, I could be talking about Firefly, I could be talking about something else. Even in a system without classes and total freedom in character creation, players will have a character in mind and they'll end up filling a certain role on the team anyway. Granted, sometimes you might find the team is made up of nothing but heavy-weapon-toting bad asses, but that's the kind of anarchy that COULD arise in a classless system. COULD. I'm very aware that it doesn't happen all the time. It my WWII-set Dresden Files Fate game (pre-Fate Core), I had a smooth talker/rogue, a doctor, a military sniper, a wannabe-druid, and the bad ass (who happened to be a seneschal to a Russian dragon). That over simplifies their characters (except maybe the bad ass), but that's how they developed their characters.

Does D20 have great rules for social interaction? Not really. Do I care? Not really. Can the system accomplish what I want? Out of the box, no, but I can hack the crap out of it to make it suit my needs. For example: the western game I ran some years ago. I wanted to be able to let my players get into bar brawls, but I hate the non-lethal damage system. My solution? I incorporated rules from the WWE Know Your Role RPG (d20-based). They have a stamina track and hit points. Critical roles on damage run the risk of doing serious harm and thus actual hit point damage. Otherwise it's all stamina and an opponent can get knocked out/pinned. (Know Your Role is surprisingly awesome if you look at how it makes D20 work for the 'setting.') Reading this thread, I've had ideas on incorporating more social mechanics into my space game.
 

Older RPGs are built on obsolete tech. (I think every version of D&D includes a good helping of obsolete tech.) Class and level limited design is obsolete tech. You can provide all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks by, say, including optional templates to enable emulation of classes and leveled advancement without having any of the limitations and hitches involved in it.
I strongly disagree on that point. The more and varied systems I have read, the more I appreciate a strong class and level system. There are things that you can do in a class+level system that simply won't work with less "limited" mechanics.
 

I personally don't understand the hate (strong word, but I couldn't think of anything else) towards class/level-based games.

Levels create awkward mechanics, like how a master alchemist/smith/flower decorator has to be able to withstand large amounts of damage in order to get their skill levels high enough to qualify as a master at their trade. And the corollary where being a master warrior lets you be a better carpenter/brewer/hair stylist than someone who has actually dedicated themselves to it. d20 tried to solve that by making non-adventuring classes like expert and commoner, but it didn't actually fix anything. They were still assumed to advance by gaining XP (the 3e DMG said so) more or less the same way as adventurers, even if it was in the background. There are these walls set up between what makes sense in the setting, and what the rules allow. It also, for me, has a psychological effect of implying characters with higher levels are more "important." Who wants to get into a love affair with a 0th level NPC, much less take them outside where a strong wind could kill them? The game treats them as a nobody. On the other hand, even if they are rather squishy, if those NPCs are better than any adventurer ever would be at their field(s) of expertise, and have interesting capabilities that have no bearing on combat prowess, the game has taken away that automatic assessment of their value as a character. Now the mechanics support a more nuanced and believable fiction.

Classes are less of a problem, but it's the same kind of problem. Being stuck in a class generally means you must have certain capabilities and cannot have others--even if that only manifests in what is harder or easier for you to train. Inevitably I find myself wanting to make a character with features from more than one class, but I can't do it well because the system doesn't have a class for that. Templates providing some pre-chosen packages are a much better system, because they give you everything a class does, but are optional.

Now, I'm not saying skill choice needs to (or even necessarily should be) a free for all pick whatever you want. There are plenty of ways to make it interesting. Maybe the better you get at one sort of thing, the worse you get at an opposed sort of thing. Or maybe certain types of skills are always found together (there are some things you really can't learn without learning others). But in order to reflect fiction, there need to be ways to represent characters with talents that break the mold.

You bring up a valid point about assessing the relative power of characters in a system without levels. Sometimes that's intentional because you aren't supposed to know, or it isn't really important. Honestly though, levels are usually actually worse in one area of that--they rarely give you a strong objective comparison. If you take a published D&D adventure, for instance, you often find NPCs that are given levels based on "how much of a challenge do we want this opponent to be for the PCs". So if it's a low level game, Such and Duzzle the Great is a 3rd level wizard, and in a high level game he's a 20th level wizard. If you look up a typical AD&D product that lists a bunch of NPC levels outside of context of adventures (setting material for instance), there is little apparent rhyme or reason. I think they were rolling dice to see what levels to set NPCs at (titles for levels in earlier editions notwithstanding). Apparently those levels mean nothing in the actual world. Now, I'm just talking about what I normally see here. There is no reason a level-based system can't have it's levels actually mean something (and whenever I run D&D I have to come up with such a frame of reference to avoid absurdity), they just usually don't (or barely do) in my experience.

Let's contrast that with a typical skill-based system (say oWoD), where the number of dots tells you how much training and accomplishment you are supposed to have in that skill. That tells me how I fit into a setting, not just how many ogres I can smack down. (Not that action resolution in oWoD actually worked out believably, but at least the concept of skill ranks was solid.) Just like not all level systems have the issue I mentioned, not all skill systems have the benefit I mentioned. Some of them just let you add more and more numbers without ever telling you what they mean. But the trend is for skill systems to do a better job here.

So, back to your point. If a system has a certain degree of complexity, and assessment of relative power in certain complex areas (like combat) is relevant, then a level-based system probably is going to have an easier time pulling that off. On the other hand, a skill-based (or to broaden it, I should say "non-level based" system, since there are alternatives to skill or level based) system might rank you in a certain category, and that might be all, or most, of what you need to know. A system with a "Fighting" and a "Thinking" stat, could tell you every thing you need to know to compare two characters in both of those areas with just those stats. "Fighting" is effectively your level for combat, and "Thinking" is your level for intellectual pursuits. Most systems are a bit more complex than that. Systems that want to tell you how good you are at combat (or some other general ranking) but aren't level based, could have a way to do so built in. To get back to one of my comments though, sometimes they actually don't want you thinking in those terms. Personally, I don't like stuck up design telling you how to play a particular system--make the system work very well a certain way, and more often than not that is the way people will want to play it. However, a decision to include or exclude such guidelines can subtly affect the mindset of players.

One thing I read years ago was the idea that a game really only needs a subsystem for something if that thing is going to be a focus of the game. Otherwise it can probably be handled by a general action resolution mechanic. So, for instance, if knowing how powerful your character is in a fight against others isn't an intended part of the game, there is no reason to have a level or other number or descriptor with that information, and having it there will tell people that it is an intended part of the game.

In the case of oWoD there was little attempt to balance powers. Some types of supernaturals were just way stronger than other types, but the designers never intended the games to actually be played together (stuck up design there), so they didn't worry about it. I disagree with their decision, but at least it made it clear that you are supposed to be playing Vampire, or Werewolf, etc, and if you need a ghost and aren't playing Wraith, then you just use the rules at the back of whichever game you are playing and call it good enough. The games are theoretically in the same universe, but you aren't allowed to play them like they are (that's probably a good way of describing what irritates me about it).

Hmm. That brings up a point right there. Levels allow for a more objective measurement of relative power, which is primarily a game consideration. I don't think role-playing games are actually (intrinsically) games at all. I think they can be games. I think they often include games. I definitely think you play with them. But I don't think they are always properly categorized as games. That's an aside, and I haven't written up my article on it yet, so I'll move on.

So putting that together, levels as a measurement of relative power, rather than as a unified or simplified (though ironically enough, level based systems are often more complex than non-level based systems) character advancement system, tell the player that relative power of characters is an important thing for this system, and signals that this role-playing system is intended to be a game. It also tells players that getting more of these levels is an important part of the game.

Most systems that don't have those sorts of measures don't want to give that message. So maybe levels are a good design choice for systems that focus on the game aspect. I'll have to give that more thought.
 

There are things that you can do in a class+level system that simply won't work with less "limited" mechanics.

I was writing a long post when you posted so just got to this. Could you provide some examples of what sorts of things you're talking about? Bonus points if you want to analyze what they bring to the experience that is inherent to the class+level framework.
 

Hussar

Legend
Not everyone considers having elaborate mechanics for resolving social conflict to be a bug. Somesee social skills, setting DCs, and rp to be enough while others see anything other than pure rp to be too much for handling social conflict.

Oh, and that's totally fair.

However, in a game where social skills is the prime focus of play, then obviously you need some sort of mechanics for resolving social conflicts. Take a simple example - running for office. Now, in D&D games, this obviously isn't something that comes up often enough that I would expect rules for it. But, in some games, this could be a major deal. When I ran Sufficiently Advanced, the idea that characters would be using the mechanics to influence large swaths of a society in order to effect some sort of social change was built right into the game. Doing that in D&D would be... problematic.

IOW, if your game is 99% not about combat, then d20 isn't really a good fit. Not that d20 is 99% about combat, it's not. Fair enough. But, combat is a major element of any d20 game. Blades in the Dark is a modern example where you really don't want d20 style mechanics.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'd point out that it's not a case of hating on level based systems (although, I do understand where you're coming from [MENTION=6776288]Brodie[/MENTION] - it's certainly a thing). It's that level based systems don't accomplish some things very well. Again, if you're coming from a heavily Sim based play game, levels don't work.

Look at GURPS as a perfect example of this. You get better in GURPS by spending points on various skills. But, your points are always very limited and there is no guarantee that you will get significantly more points throughout a campaign. Your 100 point character (to pick a random number) might very well be a 120 point character by the end of the campaign.

We ran a GURPS space game years ago based on the Kim Stanley Robinson Mars trilogy. Basically we were the colonizers of Mars and a lot of the features of the campaign were pulled straight from the books - the politics involved, the creation of a new society, etc. It wouldn't make much sense to have a level based system there. We were all accomplished professionals hand picked to go to Mars. Making me a level 1 scientist wouldn't make sense. Jacking me up to level 10 only means now I've got all these combat abilities that also don't make sense, including things like extra hit points, higher saving throw bonuses, etc.

But, in GURPS, the is less impetus towards the idea of play being about gaining levels. Your character probably isn't going to change a whole lot (except maybe from alive to dead :D ) in GURPS. You are what you are and that's not going to change much. It's a very different approach to play.
 

pemerton

Legend
Older RPGs are built on obsolete tech.

<snip>

Class and level limited design is obsolete tech. You can provide all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks by, say, including optional templates to enable emulation of classes and leveled advancement without having any of the limitations and hitches involved in it.
I don't agree that class and level design is "obsolete". If players are expected to engage the game by way of strongly mechanically-defined roles, classes are a good way of doing this. And levels can be useful as a reward mechanism (eg classic D&D) or a pacing mechanism (eg 4e D&D).

But if you don't want those things; or, if you're not prepared for the costs that class and level impose (eg not very gritty/"realistic"); then don't use class and level!

I personally don't understand the hate (strong word, but I couldn't think of anything else) towards class/level-based games. Leveling I can understand to a degree; you gain enough xp and you ding a new level and suddenly you're so much better than you were before. That's jarring and unrealistic. But I REALLY don't like (old) World of Darkness as I have no concrete idea of just how powerful my character is or isn't.

<snip>

Classes are just a mainstay in culture. Look at ANY fantasy novel/series and most times you can fit characters into classic D&D classes.
Levels aren't always a reliable indicator of mechanical effectiveness: eg compare a classic D&D 7th level thief to a 7th level MU; and 3E also has big issues here. And a non-level based game can still allow comparisons (eg in RQ the difference between a 40% skill rating and (say) 70% speaks for itself).

As far as classes are concerned, I think fitting fictional characters into them can be quite hard. Is Aragorn a ranger or a paladin? Is Gandalf a wizard, cleric, F/MU or . . . ? What class is Sam Gamgee? I tend to find that D&D's classes are really rather specific in the sorts of characters they lead to.
 

JeffB

Legend
Don't conflate the system with the setting. The d20 system was just things like classes and races existing, the six stats, and BAB/saves going up with level. Specific class/race/spell/feat details are all just part of the setting. Most of the failures of 3E can be attributed to setting details, such as specific feats and spells, rather than the mechanics of the game itself.

I'm going to start a new thread, down in the old edition forum, to try and gather opinions on the d20 system. Please feel free to chime in there. I'd be interested in what you have to say about it.

I am speaking of games as a whole. The d20 mechanic, roll vs DC is fine and dandy. Its everything built around it that is the problem. Star Wars is a perfect example. Jammed into the D20 house system, 3 versions and all three are horrible at simulating the property. Both WEG and FFG were designed specifically to model the Star Wars movies and it shows.
 

Koren n'Rhys

Explorer
I think a HUGE factor is that people are generally lazy, or at least pressed for time. If I play D&D, and my group decides we're bored with fantasy and ready to try something different, then it's MUCH easier to jump to another d20-based game. We can pick it up and jump right in, comfortable with how the mechanics work, which allows us to just enjoy the story. Compare that to having to learn a new system, however "easy" it may be. Everyone has to learn it to some degree, with a prospective GM saddled with the worst of it so that they can run the game.

I've played D&D for 30 years now, from B/X on up through 5E. I enjoy the game, I enjoy the system(s). Class & Level serves a purpose for me - taking on archetypal roles. I don't see that as "obsolete tech" - that's ridiculous. It's a system that still works - just like the combustion engine in my car. Has it been improved over the years? Of course! But it isn't obsolete just because I can buy Tesla instead. I've looked at Savage Worlds, Fate and PbtA, other new games too, and frankly don't have time to try and figure them out. I want to spend my precious gaming time just playing, so I'll reach for what's familiar far more often than not. Will it be perfect? No, but good enough to enjoy the time spent playing it.
 

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