RPG Legal Advice

Celebrim, what game is this happening in? I started off reading this as a real world metaphor for something happening in a fantasy game, but now I'm not sure.

Beyond that, and playing as devil's advocate, would the players be able to convincingly argue why they needed to go to such violent lengths to subdue the person? Why bringing him to a hospital was more important than calling for emergency medical help or the police? For that matter is it illegal to be a witness to a possible crime and to not notify the authorities? Is that considered obstruction, or would that be something else? Can it be argued that witnessing/being a party to a possible crime, and then bringing the injured person to the hospital could have been considered going to the authorities?

If my friend and I are walking to my car, and my friend is hit by a hit and run drunk driver, and I pile him into my car to rush him to the hospital, am I at fault for not calling 911, or would I be justified in assuming that taking him to a hospital and telling the authorities there what had happened was all I needed to do?

Anything "can be argued". The problem is that the players shouldn't be arguing this. For starters, while they're justifying why they went to all those lengths to subdue the person, they are admitting to having shot him - something that a prosecutor would otherwise have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Why aren't they just saying "I would like a lawyer, please" and otherwise keeping their fool mouths shut?

I'm a little baffled by most of this discussion because it feels like rules lawyering to explain why the players should be able to talk their way out of a situation. Which is fine, but not in a game where you're trying to approximate how the US justice system more or less works.

mythago said:

Anything "can be argued". The problem is that the players shouldn't be arguing this.

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I had meant argued by their defense, which would be handled by Celebrim, the GM.

For starters, while they're justifying why they went to all those lengths to subdue the person, they are admitting to having shot him - something that a prosecutor would otherwise have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Why aren't they just saying "I would like a lawyer, please" and otherwise keeping their fool mouths shut?

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It sounds like that boat has sailed already.

I'm a little baffled by most of this discussion because it feels like rules lawyering to explain why the players should be able to talk their way out of a situation. Which is fine, but not in a game where you're trying to approximate how the US justice system more or less works.

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I thought that the discussion had been the GM asking for people to help him think through the process of "what makes sense for the NPC police and legal teams to do now, if this is the situation my players have dumped all of my NPCs into?" Not "what should my players do" but "how would the police and assembled lawyers act?"

So I happen to prosecute in real life. Don't take this as legal advice by the way for anyone who might in real life get with a group of armed mercenaries and detain psychotic individuals so as to deliver them to hospitals with multiple bullet holes.

First, you've probably answered your own question.

Celebrim said:

The prosecutor doesn't want to waste his time by reaching too far and charging the perps with crimes like attempted murder or kidnapping that aren't likely to stick in front of a jury.

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Yep, assuming your game mirrors modern U.S., justification and self-defense are complete (albeit rare) defenses to assault. Your fact pattern suggests there's not another side to this story to cause a prosecutor to consider charges. I don't know what type of game you're running, so if you've got a corrupt version of modern-age gaming going on, I suppose you could have unlawful charges filed and have the players fight that angle (but if it's corrupt, they're going to lose, right?) Personally I'm not sure everyone wants to play an episode of Law and Order (corrupt authoritarian unit).

Celebrim said:

Needless to say, the police are highly suspicious of all of this, and detain the individuals for questioning.

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Pretty typical. If you're modern U.S., it's up to 24 hours in most places until charges have to be filed or the person let go. And the police should be suspicious. Every day they're inundated with B.S. stories about how events played out. A guy showing up with bullet holes screams problems.

Celebrim said:

But what can they charge them with that will actually stick? ...it seems like the whole tying someone up and transporting them ought to be unlawful...

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As oddball as it sounds, justified kidnapping to save a man's life isn't going to be a crime. We don't prosecute people for trying to do the right thing. As to failing to report a crime, that might be indicative of a guilty conscience for some and not its own crime, but as you've described, they're making their way to the hospital where, by default, it'll be reported.

Celebrim said:

The police have plenty of reason to be upset with these jokers and would like to throw the book at them...

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Is there more prior involvement with police than just this? I can understand the police perspective. No one wants a gun battle in their town. If they're diligent, they're going to investigate how this got started (why the players are mixed up with this guy). If the PCs are dodgy enough, they might look like some kind of organized crime themselves (typical parties don't have full-time jobs and go around packing small armories, not exactly the modern-day image of respectable).

Anyhoo, hope this helps.

Some thoughts depending on jurisdiction.

1. Unlawful possession of a firearm (without licensure and appropriate documentation)
2. Unlawful discharge of a firearm (within a certain distance of a dwelling)
3. Vigilantism (enforcement of law without the legal authority to do so).<--- this could be the one.
4. Attempted murder (because fixing someone up doesn't eliminate this charge.)
5. Practice of medicine without a license (you said the doc was credentialed so this is out)
6. You may or may not still be able to get at the doctor for practicing medicine without keeping proper documentation of the procedures. (rare)
7. Whatever the lunatic says they did.

The last one is important because until the legal process plays out all enforcement knows is one guy with warrants is saying another group of shady people did some messed up stuff. In my opinion, this is the best story material ever because this sort of thing will end up in the papers and media will have a field day with it. The fact that your players may be upstanding and have no record (yet) isn't going to help them in the court of public opinion or with the cops.

Be well
KB

toucanbuzz said:

So I happen to prosecute in real life.

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Ahh... you are who I want to talk to.

Don't take this as legal advice by the way for anyone who might in real life get with a group of armed mercenaries and detain psychotic individuals so as to deliver them to hospitals with multiple bullet holes.

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Definitely not. Hense the 'RPG' in the title. I'm looking for ways to get the party in legal trouble that won't feel grossly unfair, and won't be campaign ending (unless the PC's keep doing foolish things).

First, you've probably answered your own question. Yep, assuming your game mirrors modern U.S., justification and self-defense are complete (albeit rare) defenses to assault. Your fact pattern suggests there's not another side to this story to cause a prosecutor to consider charges. I don't know what type of game you're running, so if you've got a corrupt version of modern-age gaming going on...

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1924 New York. So it's as corrupt as heck, but it's all in the favor of the white Anglo wealthy PC's and not so much in the favor of the mentally challenged, Irish, parole violating felon they attempted to murder. Heck, if they'd just not acted like loons, they probably could have avoided charges even if the material evidence wasn't in their favor or their were holes in the story. It's only because they acted weird that this is even a question I have.

Players manage to take a simple clear cut case of self-defense and make a problem of it. And it's only because they are inept that they aren't in big trouble.

Personally I'm not sure everyone wants to play an episode of Law and Order (corrupt authoritarian unit).

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I know I don't. I'd rather PC's be removed from the campaign by almost any manner than the authorities come down on them. So unless they keep being stupid I'd rather make this a minor campaign point rather than TPK via law enforcement.

As oddball as it sounds, justified kidnapping to save a man's life isn't going to be a crime. We don't prosecute people for trying to do the right thing. As to failing to report a crime, that might be indicative of a guilty conscience for some and not its own crime, but as you've described, they're making their way to the hospital where, by default, it'll be reported.

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Yeah, I looked up the letter of New York state law to verify that the wording and intent of the law didn't prevent you transporting someone unconscious to a hospital. Granted he's only unconscious because they put 4 bullet holes in him, which might get an excessive force charge... if it wasn't a 6'4" 350 pound man, they didn't obviously have a good lawyer, all the witnesses, and everything else on their side.

Is there more prior involvement with police than just this?

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Not at the time it happened. Although the PC's do have one person with a criminal record on the team, he wasn't at the hospital at the time. He's a person of interest so to speak, and the police once they , and he's the only PC without a concealed carry permit, but again - as long as they don't continue to be stupid...

Anyhoo, hope this helps.

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Yes, thanks.