D&D 5E Berserker Barbarians: Wait what?

Sword of Spirit · Jun 12, 2019

Dausuul said:
THANK YOU.

Frenzy is little more than a ribbon. Mindless Rage is what makes berserkers good. It's like people are looking at a flying car and saying it sucks because of the lack of trunk space.

I don’t consider it acceptable to give one subclass its meaty ability at level 3 and its ribbon at level 6, and then do the opposite for another subclass of the same class. I somewhat doubt that was design intent either. I don’t value the frightened and charmed immunity nearly as highly as some because of how situational it is. You could go entire levels without it ever coming up, while something that grants extra attacks should reasonably come up every second fight or so.

MechaTarrasque · Jun 12, 2019

Hawk Diesel said:
You're missing the point. Does a spellcaster need to cast spells to mitigate the fact that they are using spells? Does a monk take on some handicap for using their martial arts? If a berserker barbarian is basically hamstrung for using the thing that makes them a berserker, then the system is penalizing the player for playing the class as it's meant to be played. No other class ability in the entire game makes you suffer for using your abilities aside from the resource or opportunity costs.

Isn't being a monk a handicap in itself?

I kid, I kid....On the other hand, most casters can still spam cantrips when they run out of spell slots, but when the monk runs out of ki points....not to hijack the thread too much, but maybe the monk would be better served as a caster with the gimmick that they can use an unarmed strike to deliver touch spells (obviously need some more touch spells).....

Hawk Diesel · Jun 12, 2019

Arnwolf666 said:
Not all classes and archetypes need to have the same mechanic or resource management. Some prefer it that way. My opinion only.

No, they don't. And I think 5e generally does a nice job with innovative and interesting mechanics all around. But 5e also has certain themes and philosophies built in to the system. There is a reason that races don't have stat penalties anymore. There's a reason for the action economy to exist. There are reasons that powers are divided basically into at will, x per short rest, and x per long rest. But no ability in the game punishes you for using it. Magic items, sure. But no class ability, feat, or spell punishes you. The only exceptions being haste (but that penalty is limited and only lasts a round) and Wish. And not even every wish! Only those wishes that do something other than replicate a lower level spell! So are you honestly telling me that getting to swing a weapon one additional time earlier than other classes is on par with warping the very fabric of reality? Even if it makes sense mechanically, how do you even attempt to rationalize it in the game world? Especially when a monk and fighter at 3rd level each have options that allow for a bonus action attack that requires no penalty or even any kind of addition resource expenditure?

Hawk Diesel · Jun 12, 2019

MechaTarrasque said:
Isn't being a monk a handicap in itself? I kid, I kid....On the other hand, most casters can still spam cantrips when they run out of spell slots, but when the monk runs out of ki points....not to hijack the thread too much, but maybe the monk would be better served as a caster with the gimmick that they can use an unarmed strike to deliver touch spells (obviously need some more touch spells).....

Fair point, but ki does recharge on a short rest, and monks can always spam martial arts for at least one unarmed strike every round as a bonus action without ki points.

ad_hoc · Jun 12, 2019

MechaTarrasque said:
The only problem with frenzy is that the best strategy for playing it (saving it for the big fight) is contrary to the fluff of the class (wild person attacking everything).

I don't see it that way.

It makes the most sense for the Barbarian to be raging the most at their most hated enemy.

That's not going to be the wolves or random thugs or whatever attacking them. It's going to be the jerk who is causing whatever it is that the PCs need to stop.

When people take Barbarian they expect to rage in every combat. I'm glad that rage is a special thing reserved for the most hated enemies.

BookBarbarian · Jun 12, 2019

I could also see Frenzy a using a different fatigue like mechanic that is not as punishing as Exhaustion. Spending Hit dice to activate Frenzy for example is an easy if uninspiring way to do it.

Arnwolf666 said:
Not all classes and archetypes need to have the same mechanic or resource management. Some prefer it that way. My opinion only.

Indeed, but the trouble is that only one sublcass out of all of them has mechanic that is so punishing.

Mort · Jun 12, 2019

MechaTarrasque said:
Isn't being a monk a handicap in itself? I kid, I kid....On the other hand, most casters can still spam cantrips when they run out of spell slots, but when the monk runs out of ki points....not to hijack the thread too much, but maybe the monk would be better served as a caster with the gimmick that they can use an unarmed strike to deliver touch spells (obviously need some more touch spells).....

Whether the monk gets enough ki is a separate question. I used to think they didn't, but watching the tabaxi monk in my current campaign has made me change my opinion.

But could you imagine how annoying it would be if there was an additional resource cost - say if the monk runs out of ki he gains a point of exhaustion? Yuck.

Or how about applying it to casters? Casting is strenuous right? How about if a caster runs out of spell slots at a given level - they gain a point of exhaustion? (big tangent: Though thinking about it - that's actually the perfect way to model spellcasters in Dragonlance. The novels are always showing casters casting then getting fatigued and the game never modeled it all - well this would work.)

It's the double wammie that's the problem. Rage is a limited resource, and this taps into yet another limited resource. And to cure it - you have to tap into a 3rd limited resource (long rest or relatively high level spell or item). It's just a bit much.

Arnwolf666 · Jun 13, 2019

BookBarbarian said:
I could also see Frenzy a using a different fatigue like mechanic that is not as punishing as Exhaustion. Spending Hit dice to activate Frenzy for example is an easy if uninspiring way to do it.

Indeed, but the trouble is that only one sublcass out of all of them has mechanic that is so punishing.

Would it be better if it were a once per day only ability.

BookBarbarian · Jun 13, 2019

Arnwolf666 said:
Would it be better if it were a once per day only ability.

Meh.

It's still worse than a Zealot's Divine Fury then.

Xeviat · Jun 13, 2019

BookBarbarian said:
Meh.

It's still worse than a Zealot's Divine Fury then.

Just to check on you, do you mean across the day with 1 use of frenzy? Because an extra attack from frenzy is always better, but if a combat only lasts 3 rounds then that is 2 frenzy chances to 3 Zealot chances. Considering Zealot procs on 1 hit, while Frenzy takes a separate attack roll, Zealot has a higher chance of landing each round (two advantage chances at 5th level and higher).

3 to 2 Zealot to Frenzy is frenzy better 3rd-5th level, equalish 6th-9th, and then Zealot takes off.

Very interesting.