True Counterspelling

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
I’m about to run the two wizards in my Dragonlance campaign through their Tests, one of the core requirements of which is defeating a magical opponent more powerful than themselves. I’m kind of dissatisfied with the idea of them just standing in a room and hurling spells at another wizard until one of them rolls high enough to come out ahead, so I came up with some quick and dirty counterspelling rules to make it feel more like a Gandalf vs. Saruman raw magic slugfest than a one-man-band D&D encounter.

I think it works something like this. If you know a spell, you know how to break it. This seems like basic safety. So if you can recognize a spell you know being cast by an opponent (with an Arcana check), you can use your reaction to disrupt it by expending a spell slot of the same level or higher, and smack him with the backfire for 1d6 force damage per spell slot level (yours, not his – you channel all the extra oomph right into his face).

In turn, your opponent can attempt to disguise his spell with an Arcana check of his own, and if he fails he can make an Intelligence save to work the magic spike back into the Weave and take half damage.

These rules don't necessarily replace the Counterspell spell; that spell has the benefit of working on any spell, even one you don't know, and possibly on spells higher than the level of the Counterspell (which this technique cannot do). This is a more slapdash approach that calls upon mastery of magical forces simpler than a spell but carries with it the additional benefit of possibly tossing another mage onto his dress-wearing butt.

How does that sound? I think this would be a basic function of spellcasting, available to all casters, not just wizards. I'm debating whether it should work across classes, though.
 

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HRSegovia

Explorer
It seems what you've done is convoluted the same system and what you'll wind-up with is the exact same thing - spellslinging back and forth - but on a longer scale. For this test to go well, you need more than the generic holodeck room with two wizards and expand it to an environment that encourages clever use of lower level spells. This is the true test of a wizard and the purpose of attempting to defeat a higher level wizard. You used Saruman and Gandalf as an example, but one did not ourtight defeat the other with spells. The environment played the greater role. Same goes for Lo Pan and Egg Shen - spellslinging was just games. Raistlin defeated Fistantdantilus with a sleight-of-hand. Avatar beat Blackwolf with a single pistol shot. The point is: is a wizard in pursuit of power and depending on powerful spells (greed and power), or is he wise and clever enough to look at the bigger picture (wisdom and sensitivity).

This system as you put it depends a lot on luck and does not test whether or not a wizard can be greater than the sum of his magic.

However, on the other hand, not everyone can pass the test as it should be. No matter how many clues and clever devices you put in there, many players cannot see past the spell list and will find the battle unwinnable (and often blame you for placing them in impossible situations). It's a thin line to tread, but this is a pivoting moment in the character's life and must be carefully crafted and not left to chance such as dice rolls.
 
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DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
I have to say, I gave this a trial by fire last night and it went over incredibly well. The whole party got into the tense tete-a-tete between the two wizards, and there was a cheer of joy and relief at the table when our candidate won out by the skin of his teeth. I will absolutely be keeping these rules.

It seems what you've done is convoluted the same system and what you'll wind-up with is the exact same thing - spellslinging back and forth - but on a longer scale.

That was the objective. Without something to draw out the action, spell duels come down to who has higher initiative and can get off a fireball first. D&D doesn't have a lot of nuance when it comes to one-on-one combat.

This system as you put it depends a lot on luck and does not test whether or not a wizard can be greater than the sum of his magic.
However, on the other hand, not everyone can pass the test as it should be. No matter how many clues and clever devices you put in there, many players cannot see past the spell list and will find the battle unwinnable (and often blame you for placing them in impossible situations). It's a thin line to tread, but this is a pivoting moment in the character's life and must be carefully crafted and not left to chance such as dice rolls.

I agree with your sentiment, and if I were writing a novel I would absolutely do things this way. But putting a player into a life or death situation and expecting them to think their way out or die without the benefit of their character's statistics and dice is not what a roleplaying game is about. Obviously I would reward clever play -- our wizard took to playing the haughty black robe and taunting his opponent by (incorrectly) calling out his spells before he cast them, and I took that into account by giving the opponent disadvantage on his Arcana checks.

But I chose to teach the lesson of being greater than one's spell list using the other two challenges and left the battle straight (excepting the above house rules, of course). Even the craftiest student falters before an 8d6 lightning bolt to the face and a failed Dex save.
 

Sadras

Legend
I have to say, I gave this a trial by fire last night and it went over incredibly well. The whole party got into the tense tete-a-tete between the two wizards, and there was a cheer of joy and relief at the table when our candidate won out by the skin of his teeth. I will absolutely be keeping these rules.

Sounds great, well done. Even though you have run your challenge I'd just thought I'd mention that the D&D Mystara Gazetteer 3: Principalities of Glantri offers a nice idea for a possible Wizard challenge.
 

Farland

Explorer
Glad it worked for you. I wouldn't use it, because I do feel it complicates the system and is overly powerful (ruin a spell and deal damage)!
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
Glad it worked for you. I wouldn't use it, because I do feel it complicates the system and is overly powerful (ruin a spell and deal damage)!

In exchange for a spell? It doesn't seem like a overly good trade to me. 1d6/level, save for half, is not a lot of damage.

This was the moment I knew it was working:

- NPC targets PC with Lightning Bolt. PC wins contested Arcana check, expends 3rd-level slot. NPC fails Int save and takes ~10 damage.

- PC targets NPC with Lightning Bolt. PC wins contested Arcana check. NPC fails Dex save. NPC takes ~28 damage.

The PC could have done a lot more damage with that 3rd-level slot, but by counterspelling he also saved himself ~28 HP.

After that, things went much worse for the PC for a couple of rounds, but he eventually pulled it out with an uncountered critical hit from a Witch Bolt. The whole combat went something like this:

NPC: Darkness
Arcana: PC
Countered, no save

PC: Lightning Bolt
Arcana: NPC
Countered, save

NPC: Lightning Bolt
Arcana: PC
Countered, no save

PC: Lightning Bolt
Arcana: PC
Uncountered, no save

NPC: Lightning Bolt
Arcana: NPC
Uncountered, save

PC: Darkness
Arcana: NPC
Countered

NPC: Witch Bolt
Arcana: NPC
Missed

PC: Witch Bolt
Arcana: PC
Uncountered, victory
 

HRSegovia

Explorer
I have to say, I gave this a trial by fire last night and it went over incredibly well. The whole party got into the tense tete-a-tete between the two wizards, and there was a cheer of joy and relief at the table when our candidate won out by the skin of his teeth. I will absolutely be keeping these rules.


Well, I really can't argue with that if that is what you're looking for. Glad you had fun. THAT is what's important.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Glad to hear it worked out. I might be interested in giving this a try instead of the cobbled together counterspell ability I've been working on for my own rpg. I don't know if it would be more or less complicated. But sounds like it played well without really adding tons of time.

My Counterspell works almost the same. Cast the spell. Check to see if you can determine the incoming spell. Check isn't necessary if it is a spell you have/know in your spellbook.

If yes, spend appropriate spell slot to counter.

If no, you can still spend a slot to counter, it just might not work if the spell coming at you is higher level than the slot you're using. Would still, possibly, mitigate the effects (here's where it gets unsure -the mechanics to implement that across the board). But not block the whole thing.

Obviously, this is for arcane magic spell-slinging. Divine magic is not subject to this kind of thing...the idea of permitting a reactionary "Dispel Magic" has come up...but I think might be OP'd or just too fiddly.
 

jrowland

First Post
Looks good. I'd expand it a bit:
allow semi-countering with lower level slots for "reductions" in damge, DC, etc.

NPC: Fireball
PC: Counters with Magic-Missile as DR
NPC rolls 20 DMG
PC fails Save, but mitigates damage by 3d4+3 (magic-missile Damage).

Narrative: The NPC throws a pea-sized ball of fire at you, you shoot 3 magic-missles at it, tearing off bits of fire before the pea explodes into a ball of fire in your face.

Alternatively the spent magic missile could give a +1 (ie +1 /spell level) to the save. There might be some scaling issues, but I think if this level of counterspelling is limited to "duels" and not real combat, then I think its fine if it is a bit wonky.

"Master, why do you prepare the knock spell every day? The doors of the tower are never locked!"
 

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