How Did I Become a Grognard?

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I agree that the type of use of the grid in 4e (and this was also true in 3.x, though distances were still measured in feet or inches or something) is materially different. In AD&D (1e particularly) it is fairly unclear exactly what the expected process is. The game is all built on the classic Chainmail style 'just measure on the table' concept, with what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] quoted showing that minis physical size basically dictated what could move where, who you could attack, etc. Often we would mount our minis on fixed-size bases, which is also a technique borrowed from minis wargaming (both Battlesystem and Swords & Spells perpetuated this for D&D mass combat).

However, then there are hexes and squares. My understanding at the time is that these were really just a convenience to obviate the need for a ruler, you could count off squares and get a pretty good idea of the range, and hexes were even better (but don't work so well in built areas). These were also common in minis wargame play, and the wargame club I belonged to in the late 70's had terrain cut from MDF and styrofoam which conformed to the hex grids ruled on all their (12 or so) 4' x 8' gaming tables.

AD&D's DMG seemed to imply that you could actually use the squares/hexes as a positioning mechanism where PCs 'occupy a square', but beyond what Pemerton quoted (and even there it doesn't actually state outright that things occupy squares) the idea doesn't get any support. Still, as time went on and our wargamer beginnings faded into myth and legend we did tend to that kind of technique (say by the late 90s).

Still, you can argue a lot of things from the 1e DMG. Page 70 has a paragraph titled "Who Attacks Whom:" in which it is stated that it is "generally not possible to select a specific opponent in mass melee." This is rather at odds with any notion of a system in which creatures have an exact position, as that would tend to make who attacks whom fairly obvious. You could however go with the randomization technique next proposed only within the bounds of what you are positioned near, but the text doesn't seem to assume that!

Page 71 has "Example of Melee:". This is rife with contradictions to the above rules WRT how exactly you might use positioning. It starts by describing the positions of the two parties in moderate detail. Almost immediately one of the fighters in party A rushes forward to specifically target a given member of party B, which seems potentially to be in contradiction to the 'generally you can't target a specific opponent in melee', but MAYBE this is an exception because he's closing? We don't know, there isn't any stated rules on how that works! Nor does the text describe the GM or players moving miniatures around or anything similar.

The example then continues in the same vein with the various opponents selecting targets and attacking, even though by now a general melee has certainly broken out. Eventually one of the casters tosses a Web and some of the PCs from each group are caught, but it is never really explained HOW this determination is made! It appears there was some kind of calculation involved, but the example either leaves out all the information related to positioning (IE where the minis were moved or whatever) or else the DM truly winged it. If he did and I was part of party B I'd be pretty miffed about the Web, as who was caught in it seemed fairly arbitrary.

I'd also note that the entire encounter doesn't mention any use of terrain at all, even though there is a corner which could have factored in. Overall the 1e DMG is pretty hazy on what exactly the process for position in combat is. It doesn't really ever explain how movement is adjudicated either. The party with initiative gets to react first, but it doesn't say that they execute moves first! How movement is handled vis-a-vis initiative is also a mystery left unsolved by the rules!

I think the “you can’t choose a target in melee” was referring more to a mass melee, like 6 PCs, possibly with henchmen, fighting a dozen orcs in a 20’x20’ room. At least that’s the idea I got from it. And thinking about it, it would be interesting to come up with a way to handle a frat like that differently.

If I recall, I think the most interesting thing in the example of play, though, is the wizard makes an attack roll to deliver a touch spell. I don’t remember that rule anywhere else in the DMG or PHB.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION], that's a good post.

With respect to the example of melee in Gygax's DMG, literal participants in the melee are Aggro (who killed Balto), Blastum (who killed by Arlanni via shocking grasp) and Arkayn who is fighting Gutboy and Barjin. So my take on the web is that the player is allowed to declare that all the enemy NPCs are caught (ie Blastum, Gutboy and Barjin) but that the PC who is also in melee with them (Arkayn) also gets caught. Aggro is spared because Balto is spared from the web because already dead; and Arlanni's body may or may not be caught in the web but no one cares because she is dead.

I'll readily concede that the above is inference (or, if you prefer, conjecture) - it's definitely not spelled out. And it doesn't seem to rest on any sense of definite positioning of the various characters. It's one point (in my view not the only one) where the precision assumed in spell descriptions like web contradicts the apparent engaged/not-engaged approach to melee. And is the sort of thing that makes 13th Age's move to "your spell hits 1d3+1 targets" look sensible.

I’d have to go back and reread it, but I think I always felt it was simply an adjudication based on what they were doing, as you point out. The monsters are caught, but so are any characters in melee with them.

I love that specific positioning and movement is absent from their turns, and that’s something I maintain to this day. I think tying movement to your turn, and how that impacts positioning, is my biggest complaint about the newer systems where it makes it feel more like a board game where everybody else is frozen while you take your turn.

If the battlefield is big enough that movement is a thing, then we just account for it in our order of actions. For example, the fighter is 30 feet from an orc with a loaded crossbow, the orc will most likely make his shot before the fighter arrives. Actually, this is where I really liked the yards/feet rule in AD&D. Indoors, 30 feet away isn’t that far and I might give the orc disadvantage. Outdoors, 30 yards is good for a close to melee in a round, but is much easier for the orc, and I wouldn’t impose disadvantage to the shot.

Now that I think of it, I never really had a problem with AD&D initiative, especially rolling every round. We don’t really use it, because we just do it based on the actions (as above), but I might consider going back to AD&D style initiative for declaring actions, who declares/starts first. I don’t care for the break in the flow (which is why we use it as an opposes check if needed).
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I’d have to go back and reread it, but I think I always felt it was simply an adjudication based on what they were doing, as you point out. The monsters are caught, but so are any characters in melee with them.

I love that specific positioning and movement is absent from their turns, and that’s something I maintain to this day. I think tying movement to your turn, and how that impacts positioning, is my biggest complaint about the newer systems where it makes it feel more like a board game where everybody else is frozen while you take your turn.

If the battlefield is big enough that movement is a thing, then we just account for it in our order of actions. For example, the fighter is 30 feet from an orc with a loaded crossbow, the orc will most likely make his shot before the fighter arrives. Actually, this is where I really liked the yards/feet rule in AD&D. Indoors, 30 feet away isn’t that far and I might give the orc disadvantage. Outdoors, 30 yards is good for a close to melee in a round, but is much easier for the orc, and I wouldn’t impose disadvantage to the shot.

Now that I think of it, I never really had a problem with AD&D initiative, especially rolling every round. We don’t really use it, because we just do it based on the actions (as above), but I might consider going back to AD&D style initiative for declaring actions, who declares/starts first. I don’t care for the break in the flow (which is why we use it as an opposes check if needed).

I was right, the “who attacks whom” specifically states mass melee. If
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Ways that I'm stereotypically a "grognard":

1. I prefer to play without a battle mat.
2. When I must use a battle mat, it's hand-drawn with wet-erase pens.
3. I still draw my maps on graph paper, with colored pencils.
4. Whenever I look up rules or monster stats on the fly, I use the physical books.
5. I call them "modules," not "one-offs."
6. Monks and dragonborn are not a thing.


Ways that I'm stereotypically NOT a "grognard":

1. I play the newest edition of D&D.
2. I watch Critical Role.
3. I listen to D&D podcasts.
4. Of all 12 players in my three different gaming groups, 8 of them are women.
5. I write my adventures in Google Docs.
6. Warlocks are a thing.
 


MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
There's probably nothing more grognard than some old curmudgeon like myself arguing over what a grognard is. In that spirit...

Ways that I'm stereotypically a "grognard":

1. I prefer to play without a battle mat.

Lots of discussion about this already, but I'll give you this.

2. When I must use a battle mat, it's hand-drawn with wet-erase pens.

Real grognards use rulers.

3. I still draw my maps on graph paper, with colored pencils.
4. Whenever I look up rules or monster stats on the fly, I use the physical books.

I'll give you these.


5. I call them "modules," not "one-offs."

Module is just what TSR called an adventure. Most old-school modules were not designed to be played in a single session, other than RPGA competitive convention modules. A one-off was used for any single-session adventure that was not part of any ongoing campaign. These would generally involve pre-generated PCs that were designed for the one-off.


6. Monks and dragonborn are not a thing.

I'll give you dragonborn, but monks go way back.


Ways that I'm stereotypically NOT a "grognard":

1. I play the newest edition of D&D.

Sure, ultimately a grognard--in gaming terms--is someone who holds the opinion that older systems are better.

2. I watch Critical Role.
3. I listen to D&D podcasts.

Grognards are not technophobes. TSR recorded a play session for radio with professional voice actors but it was simply too expensive at the time with the technology and platforms available, so I think they scrapped that. I used to run games at my local library in the mid 80s and there were always hangers-on who stick around to just watch games in progress. A good game session is a good story and people have always like a good story. The Internet actually help create grognards by providing affordable publishing platforms that drove the OSR movement. Those who liked older systems had to use new technology to find other grognards and publish OSR-style materials.

4. Of all 12 players in my three different gaming groups, 8 of them are women.

This is a pet peeve of mine. I'm well aware of the stereotypes, but we always had girls in our games in high school. Tabletop miniature war games were different, but TTRPGs were not the sausage fest everyone keeps describing.

5. I write my adventures in Google Docs.

Again, grognard doesn't equal technophobe.

6. Warlocks are a thing.

I'll give you that.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
There's probably nothing more grognard than some old curmudgeon like myself arguing over what a grognard is. In that spirit...
I almost included a bit at the bottom that read, "EDIT: This is meant to be tongue-in-cheek; I'm just poking fun of myself and the idea of what a Grognard is" or something like that. But I decided nah, people will get it, this is obviously one of those outdated list-gags that used to go around e-mail in the 90s...because grognard, lol.

Maybe I should have included it after all? :D

You are definitely right. Real grognards do use rulers, don't they? I mean, that's a hold-over from the days of wargaming, which I think is where the term "grognard" came from. Not too long ago, I saw a bunch of guys at the local game shop playing some really cool-looking wargame with literally hundreds of minis, and they were plotting distance with tape measures. That's not just old-school; that's fossil record. :)

Again, grognard doesn't equal technophobe.
Oh I know. I mean, the irony of claiming to hate technology on the Internet is lost on some, but not on me. ;)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I don't see not using monks as "non-Grognard" - they go back to the earliest days of D&D! (Supplement II, to be precise.)

Hardcore grogs only 4 classes. And in alternate 2E helmed by Gygax he was going to cut the Monk apparently.

I lean towards 8 classes myself, but the Monk does seem out of place even when you add in things like warlock and sorcerer. It's from a different genre is why (wuxia).
 
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[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION], that's a good post.

With respect to the example of melee in Gygax's DMG, literal participants in the melee are Aggro (who killed Balto), Blastum (who killed by Arlanni via shocking grasp) and Arkayn who is fighting Gutboy and Barjin. So my take on the web is that the player is allowed to declare that all the enemy NPCs are caught (ie Blastum, Gutboy and Barjin) but that the PC who is also in melee with them (Arkayn) also gets caught. Aggro is spared because Balto is spared from the web because already dead; and Arlanni's body may or may not be caught in the web but no one cares because she is dead.

I'll readily concede that the above is inference (or, if you prefer, conjecture) - it's definitely not spelled out. And it doesn't seem to rest on any sense of definite positioning of the various characters. It's one point (in my view not the only one) where the precision assumed in spell descriptions like web contradicts the apparent engaged/not-engaged approach to melee. And is the sort of thing that makes 13th Age's move to "your spell hits 1d3+1 targets" look sensible.

Yeah, I agree, Gygax here is relying on his "everyone is engaged in one big melee if they are engaged" thing, which is mentioned as a thing someplace in this section, though I didn't specifically pick it out. I guess it is where he talks about randomly attacking different enemies once you're all in melee (which oddly the example never addresses). In fact this whole melee WOULD work pretty much exactly the same as a 13th Age one! The main differences would be the order of actions, the lack of concepts of spellcasting as being a distinct type of activity that can't be tried in combat, and the way 13th Age has a stress die.
 

I think the “you can’t choose a target in melee” was referring more to a mass melee, like 6 PCs, possibly with henchmen, fighting a dozen orcs in a 20’x20’ room. At least that’s the idea I got from it. And thinking about it, it would be interesting to come up with a way to handle a frat like that differently.

If I recall, I think the most interesting thing in the example of play, though, is the wizard makes an attack roll to deliver a touch spell. I don’t remember that rule anywhere else in the DMG or PHB.

Well, OK, but then what is the dividing line between 'mass' and 'regular' melee? I don't really see those terms used in any consistent way, the word 'mass' or 'mass combat' seems to crop up now and then, but I don't get the impression Gygax is saying there are clear categories of combats. Truthfully, in all my years of AD&D play (20+) I never saw a DM insist on attacks vs random opponents, unless there was some reason like they all looked identical. Even then such things were rare enough that I'm not sure it ever happened. Monster attacks were sometimes randomized by DMs, probably more out of a sense of running monsters with limited intellect in a fair way than anything else (IE the giant spiders are INT 1 and really don't know to target the wizard).

I suspect the wizard making an attack roll is an editorial thing. That or Gygax interpreted the description of Shocking Grasp to require a to-hit. Knowing how Gygax ran games that wouldn't surprise me at all!
 

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