D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Nope. Because

[*]Sherlock Holmes having an above average intelligence is not a fact
It's established in the fiction of Sherlock Holmes as a character that he is smarter than everyone around him excepting Moriarty -- the only other person to challenge Sherlock's genius. He has a world class memory, and learns at a prodigious rate. According to any measure of intelligence, those traits clearly mark him as above average. That it can be argued that Sherlock Holmes was of at least above average intelligence is utterly baffling. Sherlock Holmes is defined as a genius.

[*]5 Int is not below average for Sherlock Holmes. It is average, over a population of 1. Therefore that is not a fact either.
Utterly nonsensical. Firstly, the PHB defines 10-12 as average in ability score. 5 is below average, by definition of the game. Secondly, averages don't exist in single samples, so, what? And thirdly, are you seriously making this argument because you truly believe that a 5 INT is not below average, or are you doing this to argue?
[*]Your argument is not unbiassed. You are citing as facts things that aren't, to give it a spurious air of credibility.
You misunderstand bias. Regardless of whether or not you think the cited facts are correct, using those premises to come to the conclusion I have is unbiased. You treat the premises as true, and you use only those to arrive at the conclusion in deductive logic. Doing so without coloring with additional personal belief is unbiased.

Now, you can question the premises, as you've done (poorly), but a conclusion logically drawn on those premises is unbiased.

Without speaking for @iserith (who is perfectly capable of speaking for himself) I'll help you out by saying how I would handle this as DM.

Player: "I shoot my eye lasers at the monster"
DM: "Your laser beams bounce harmlessly off the monster's ears, zip around the room and happen to illuminate a small crack, high up on the north wall. A small amount of dust falls from the crack and causes you to sneeze. Paladin's turn next."

Don't just say no, make the consequences add to the narrative. If the player does something silly, make the consequences correspondingly silly and move on.
Yes, that would be 'c', and representative of 'frogs can't take IQ tests' train of Iserth's thinking. It would have nothing to do with 'turn the dial to 'S'', though.

However, I question the practice of taking the player's declaration as sacrosanct is really compatible with making it meaningless in effect. Allowing the player to declare whatever they want, but unless it meets your definition of what's allowed you just describe it has happening in a meaningless way really isn't that different from just saying 'no.' In fact, I'd argue it's more damaging, because it doesn't directly deal with the mismatch of expectations, meaning rendering the actions meaningless adds to the player's sense that nothing he does matters and/or reinforces that the game you're playing is ridiculous, with arbitrary outcomes, so might as well not take it seriously and declare random things to make the DM dance. Also, it wastes the characters action whereas a 'no, you can't shoot lasers out of your eyes, declare a different action,' or a 'you can declare that, but I'll just rule it ineffective and you'll waste your action, would you like to do something else, instead' are both more direct ways to deal with the situation that doesn't punish the player.
 

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RotGrub

First Post
Without speaking for @iserith (who is perfectly capable of speaking for himself) I'll help you out by saying how I would handle this as DM.

Player: "I shoot my eye lasers at the monster"
DM: "Your laser beams bounce harmlessly off the monster's ears, zip around the room and happen to illuminate a small crack, high up on the north wall. A small amount of dust falls from the crack and causes you to sneeze. Paladin's turn next."

Don't just say no, make the consequences add to the narrative. If the player does something silly, make the consequences correspondingly silly and move on.

I'd just declare the action invalid and remove it from play. That way the other players don't have to deal with a silly narrative.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I'd just declare the action invalid and remove it from play. That way the other players don't have to deal with a silly narrative.

I think it's important not to get caught up in the silliness of the example and to keep in mind what [MENTION=6801216]ChrisCarlson[/MENTION] said above.

I don't care what the action declaration is - the same process of determining certainty or uncertainty and narration applies regardless of what it is. Some are saying "you can't declare certain things given a particular ability score" (or "your action declaration is invalid" or "I'm going to insert this extra step to determine if your action declaration is valid") and I don't buy that.
 

RotGrub

First Post
I think it's important not to get caught up in the silliness of the example and to keep in mind what [MENTION=6801216]ChrisCarlson[/MENTION] said above.

I don't care what the action declaration is - the same process of determining certainty or uncertainty and narration applies regardless of what it is. Some are saying "you can't declare certain things given a particular ability score" (or "your action declaration is invalid" or "I'm going to insert this extra step to determine if your action declaration is valid") and I don't buy that.

I know my players would be rather upset if I didn't act as the gate keeper on what kind of actions are acceptable. If a player tried to do something that seemed far beyond a particular ability score, I'd certainly ask for an ability check or just say no.

Be it a simple oversight or a deliberate choice to act in bad faith, it's always important to be mindful of what actions are impossible. Allowing strange and inconsistent things to happen will still result in a story, but it won't be the shared story that everyone at the table agrees on.

It's nice to have all these golden DMing theories, but sometimes saying "no", is all that's needed.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I know my players would be rather upset if I didn't act as the gate keeper on what kind of actions are acceptable. If a player tried to do something that seemed far beyond a particular ability score, I'd certainly ask for an ability check or just say no.

Be it a simple oversight or a deliberate choice to act in bad faith, it's always important to be mindful of what actions are impossible. Allowing strange and inconsistent things to happen will still result in a story, but it won't be the shared story that everyone at the table agrees on.

It's nice to have all these golden DMing theories, but sometimes saying "no", is all that's needed.

I think there's an important distinction between what fictional actions are impossible based on the fictional circumstances at that moment and what action declarations are impossible. "You're too dumb to suggest turning the dial to 'S'..." doesn't sit well with me.
 

RotGrub

First Post
I think there's an important distinction between what fictional actions are impossible based on the fictional circumstances at that moment and what action declarations are impossible. "You're too dumb to suggest turning the dial to 'S'..." doesn't sit well with me.

that's why you ask for a check, then you don't feel so bad when the player fails. :)
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
that's why you ask for a check, then you don't feel so bad when the player fails. :)

If the action declaration is simply turning a dial, I can find no justification for asking for a check if there is nothing physically interfering with the character doing so. "I try to deduce whether 'S' is the correct answer before turning the dial..." might well call for a check, however.
 

BoldItalic

First Post
Sherlock Holmes is very intelligent, in Watson's opinion. But that doesn't make it a fact. Sherlock Holmes as a D&D character has an Int of 5, in my opinion. Not a fact either. Opinions are not facts.

All you can do with opinions is try to decide whether or not the person holding those opinions is self-consistent. You can't infer facts from them.

It is possible to believe, consistently, that
  • Sherlock Holmes is highly intelligent
  • Sherlock Holmes has a high Int score
  • High Intelligence correlates closely with high Int scores

But it is also possible to believe, consistently, that
  • Sherlock Holmes has a low Int score
  • Sherlock Holmes is highly skilled at investigation
  • High skill at investigation can offset a low Int score

None of those six beliefs is a fact and no facts can be deduced from them.

Reasoning with beliefs is different from reasoning with facts.
 

BoldItalic

First Post
I know my players would be rather upset if I didn't act as the gate keeper on what kind of actions are acceptable. If a player tried to do something that seemed far beyond a particular ability score, I'd certainly ask for an ability check or just say no.

Be it a simple oversight or a deliberate choice to act in bad faith, it's always important to be mindful of what actions are impossible. Allowing strange and inconsistent things to happen will still result in a story, but it won't be the shared story that everyone at the table agrees on.

It's nice to have all these golden DMing theories, but sometimes saying "no", is all that's needed.
There is a third possibility between "mistake" and "bad faith", and that is "fun". Saying no isn't fun and doesn't create fun. It dampens creativity. It blocks.
 

pedro2112

First Post
Sherlock Holmes as a D&D character has an Int of 5, in my opinion.

Your "opinion" is wrong, according to the rules of 5E. As a comparison, a gorilla in 5E has an intelligence score of 6. No rational human being could believe that Sherlock Holmes has less intelligence than a gorilla.
 

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