Shin Okada
Explorer
A short question. When a character has Mirror Image spell active and also has concealment (and similar miss-chance giver such as Displacement), should the mirrored images also have concealment?
D&D 3E/3.5 3.5e : Mirror Image and Concealment
delericho
Legend
Ah. Pretty much my least-favourite combination of spell and condition. I don't think there's a clear and definitive answer on this one. So, here's how I would handle it:
First, determine whether an attack with target the caster or an image (usually a random roll).
Then determine if a miss chance applies to that target. If you're using a ring of displacement then you have a miss chance but your images do not; in the case of low-light areas, some or all images may have one. Indeed, it's possible that an image might be in low-light where the caster is not!
Then, finally, make the attack roll and miss chance.
(But I'm inclined to think that mirror image is a badly written spell, and really should work by giving the caster a miss chance, thus bypassing questions on how it combines - use the best. Alas, that's not how it actually works.
)
First, determine whether an attack with target the caster or an image (usually a random roll).
Then determine if a miss chance applies to that target. If you're using a ring of displacement then you have a miss chance but your images do not; in the case of low-light areas, some or all images may have one. Indeed, it's possible that an image might be in low-light where the caster is not!
Then, finally, make the attack roll and miss chance.
(But I'm inclined to think that mirror image is a badly written spell, and really should work by giving the caster a miss chance, thus bypassing questions on how it combines - use the best. Alas, that's not how it actually works.
)
Grogg of the North
Adventurer
I agree with [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] on mirror image.
I think this would definitely be a scenario where you should ask your DM out of session about how they would rule on it.
I think this would definitely be a scenario where you should ask your DM out of session about how they would rule on it.
n00bdragon
First Post
Given that the spell states that the images take on identical appearances to you even after the spell has been cast (such as if you become invisible, in which case the images become useless) I would rule that concealment also affects the images normally.
If someone wants to argue that this isn't balanced or fair or whatever just remind them that you're playing a 3.5 wizard and that the Mirror Image spell already gives you at a bare minimum of level 3 and worst possible rolls an effective 66% concealment, better than any other effect in the game. What's a few more percent going to matter?
If someone wants to argue that this isn't balanced or fair or whatever just remind them that you're playing a 3.5 wizard and that the Mirror Image spell already gives you at a bare minimum of level 3 and worst possible rolls an effective 66% concealment, better than any other effect in the game. What's a few more percent going to matter?
Grogg of the North
Adventurer
Are you sure about that? Because I'm not seeing that in either the PHB or the SRD. I read where they mimic your actions and react to AoE spells but that's it.
As for mirror images copying spell effects, the way I have seen it described as when you miss because of something like blur or displacement, you're striking at where the illusion presents them to be. So while the mirror image appears to be blurred or displaced, you're still striking image, destroying it since it's all one illusion. This happens to be the ruling I go with. Now things like low light could grant the illusions miss chance.
Finally, mirror images are figments and figments cannot produce real effects like other illusion spells. i feel that that is another strike against mirror images copying spell effects.
Either way, ask your DM how they would rule on that before you try to combo the spells.
Greenfield
Adventurer
So if my caster hides behind a bush, bushes appear in front of all my images? BZZZZT - Wrong!
Presuming that your rules quote is correct (an I see it has already been disputed), then the only concealment your images would enjoy would be that provided by a spell or spell effect. Normal concealment wouldn't apply.
While Mirror Image says that we should "generally roll a dice to see which image you hit", the fact is that images aren't all in one swirling, dancing mob. It's quite possible to target a specific image. By the spell description each image occupies its own square, within five feet of the caster or another image. They could be in a chorus line, if the caster wanted them that way, thus allowing the caster to be under 100% hard cover and still have images out there in plain sight and targetable.
The caster can only swap places with an image on their move action (hence my comment about them *not* being a swirling, dancing blob.)
Fact is, if I see a crowd of the same person, and one of them ducks for cover behind a bush, I can be pretty sure that that's the real one, since the images don't act on their own. All of the other images will mimic the crouching posture, but without anything to crouch behind they'll look pretty stupid.
Also remember that concealment can be positional: The open door conceals the caster from the Rogue standing behind it, but not from the Ranger across the room.
So how do you handle it? Grab a handful of pennies and place them on the board, replacing the caster's miniature with one and arranging the rest as you choose, but always in a line or group. Maybe put a dot on the back of one to represent the original.
Now if the player says "Shoot the mage" and doesn't specify an image, roll the dice to see who he's shooting at. If it specifies the one under concealment, their target number to hit goes up. If they hit pick up the coin and check it. No spot? Gone. Spot? Spot on! Assign the damage and continue play. Be prepared to rescramble the coins on the caster's move action every round.
n00bdragon
First Post
So answer me this then, if Mirror Image doesn't copy the visual effects of other spells (such as Displacement) then why does it state very specifically that the images don't function when the caster is invisible? That might make sense if we're supposed to treat the images and the real caster together as an "swarm of wizards" because ostensibly his opponents should realize the real wizard is invisible and stop targeting the images... or something... unless they don't realize the caster is invisible. Ugh, this makes my head hurt.
On the other hand, if the wizards take up distinct squares and can be targeted separately instead of rolling a die to see which one you shoot then you'd be correct. It makes sense for them to possibly look different, though if you go this route the clause about invisibility doesn't make any sense.
Also, why can't any listen checks be made to determine which copies are fake? They obviously don't make any noise otherwise closing ones eyes wouldn't do you any good against the spell.
This thing is just a mess of contradictions. If you play without grids then it has to work one way, if you play with a grid and each copy gets its own square then it has to work a different way.
On the other hand, if the wizards take up distinct squares and can be targeted separately instead of rolling a die to see which one you shoot then you'd be correct. It makes sense for them to possibly look different, though if you go this route the clause about invisibility doesn't make any sense.
Also, why can't any listen checks be made to determine which copies are fake? They obviously don't make any noise otherwise closing ones eyes wouldn't do you any good against the spell.
This thing is just a mess of contradictions. If you play without grids then it has to work one way, if you play with a grid and each copy gets its own square then it has to work a different way.
I agree. It worked in classic D&D, which uses 1 minute rounds and loose positioning rules. But it is hopeless for the short rounds and precise positioning of later versions of D&D.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Mirror Image does cause the images to duplicate the appearance of the caster, and should include spell effects and conditions that change that appearance.
It's mundane conditions like hiding behind a door that it doesn't duplicate. Light the caster on fire? His images burn. Bloody his nose? They all have bloody noses. Cover him in magical Darkness? That's positional and would affect only the images in the same area. Use some sense and it works fine.
According to the spell, they do take up distinct squares, each within five feet of the caster or another image. The advice to roll a dice is just that: Advice, for faster play. Note the word "generally" in the spell text, when it comes to that dice roll. It's just the easiest way to handle it.
The figments do make sounds like the original. It never says otherwise, and pretty much says it when it says that Listen checks won't help. Or perhaps, if you prefer, the sounds of the original are sort of decentralized, blurred if you will, so you can't tell which one they come from. (That keeps the spell from also becoming a sound amplifier.)
Does it work differently with and without grids? Yeah. So does every AoE spell, Attack of Opportunity rules and pretty much all movement.
Dandu
First Post
My bard's dreams of being a one-man riverdance ensemble have come true!
