GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?

Celebrim

Legend
I posted links to recordings and a youtube video. I was reluctant to post an example by text because I think it ran the risk of being very artificial (and for what it is worth I agree with Celebrim that it is artificial). I don't think it is very useful for discussion for that reason. But I just wanted to put out SOMETHING so you might have an idea of where I am coming from.

I think I do get where you are coming from, as I'm somewhat on the opposite end of the spectrum and prone to verbosity. So I'm keen to learn something from your take, if only to mitigate my flaws.

However, I don't think I'm going to be convinced that "cinematic" (using the word as a term of art to mean "tending to cause everyone to imagine the same evocative scene") is unimportant to play, and if that ultimately is your position, I think our aesthetics of play are too far apart to really help each other much.
 

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It's amazing how many arguments depend on different understandings of what a word or phrase mean. Without knowing how exactly Bedrockgames defines narration or scene, I don't really know what his objection is in this case. But as best as I can tell Bedrockgames has right from the beginning of the thread tried to distinguish Narration from Conversation, and made it clear in his original post that for the purposes of the thread he was using both as terms of art. Quote:

"This comes from a topic in another thread where GM description came up. Some posters saw the GM's role as that of narrator, preferring a style of description that felt like prose from a novel, others preferred a more conversational approach. The first approach was more literary, placed emphasis on being evocative and building a sense of atmosphere. The second focused more on plain spoken language and interaction between the players and GMs as the descriptions unfold."

So, as for as his "idiosyncratic definition of the word" goes, he seems to have dutifully addressed that when he started the thread. Granted, that was a long time ago and I've made no attempt to follow all the twists and turns of this discussion.

Admittedly we've gotten bogged down in semantics a bit and lost sight of the original meaning of the thread I think. For me the key distinction here is between a style that aims for a more prepackaged and planned sound (like boxed text) that emulates things like novel descriptions, versus a more casual, laid back approach that emphasizes the interaction between the players and the GM in order to allow for as much player interjection as possible (with the idea that this is important to character agency). I think the boxed text approach often, but certainly not always, has a tendency to lead to a style of play where the players are expected to listen for the entirety of the boxed text description. It also leads, at least in my opinion, to a less spontaneous style of play (because the GM is used to having things like this prepared in advance and maybe less comfortable just describing something in plain speech on the fly----this was my experience back when I used to take the boxed text approach).
 

I think I do get where you are coming from, as I'm somewhat on the opposite end of the spectrum and prone to verbosity. So I'm keen to learn something from your take, if only to mitigate my flaws.

However, I don't think I'm going to be convinced that "cinematic" (using the word as a term of art to mean "tending to cause everyone to imagine the same evocative scene") is unimportant to play, and if that ultimately is your position, I think our aesthetics of play are too far apart to really help each other much.

I am not trying to convince you of that. Lots of people want everyone to imagine the same thing very clearly. That is fine. I see the function of it. I just am happy to allow for differences on this front. In fact I often like hearing about the different ways players imagined something
 

Celebrim

Legend
Again, how we think of what we are doing at the table matters. Thinking that it is a scene carries all kinds of implications that I believe influences GM adjudication. I know this, because when I think of it as a scene, I run the game differently.

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Goody. We are going to get into a discussion of what a "scene" is and how thinking about how you play a game is as important to how you play a game as the rules of the game. These are like two of my favorite topics.

When I use the word "scene" with respect to a table top game, I mean "everything that happens between handwaves" (granted, that's a bit of a tongue and cheek definition). That is to say, you know a scene is starting because you beginning to keep track of what is going on, and you are no longer hand waving player motion through time and place. The end of the prior handwave is marked by the "Bang", the important thing that establishes a scene is beginning, and the end of a scene is marked by a handwave called a "Cut".

A handwave is when things happen but they aren't really important enough to describe. How a table frames its scenes together is a big part of their procedure of play, and sometimes it's not really clear cut. Some cut->bangs are so small and have so little OOC conversation and book keeping between them, that they are practically indistinguishable from a "long take" (sometimes called "process simulation" or "purist for process" where every detail is treated as important). In your example of play, I would tend to treat what you described as a single scene, but it could probably be broken down into three scenes because you handwave the movement between the three or even possibly four separate establishing "shots" - one in the street, one before the door, one in the entrance to the gambling hall, and finally one on the third floor where the scene proper really begins.

The fact that nothing really happens in those establishing "shots" is why I would consider this a single scene. For all practical purposes, you could have just cut and banged to the scene where you were on the third floor balcony of the gambling hall, and indeed a lot of GMs would have done so. However, the establishing shots at least give the players some minimal understanding of where they are, and if you didn't have them you'd need to have a larger "Bang" to explain how and where they were before confronting Iron God Meng. Since you've expressed a preference for short less literary bangs, you've guided the players to the bang in a series of steps.

As you might have guessed from my variation on your example of play, I tend to treat each bang as establishing at least a potentially meaningful scene. If the players are stopped at the door to the gambling hall, that's because something meaningful can occur here. If the players are stopped on the street, then its because the street vendors are potentially important. If they weren't, I wouldn't have even mentioned them, and would have just jumped to the bang where they arrive at the gambling hall confronted by doorkeepers in blue garb.

Now, all this talk of "scenes" has probably made you uncomfortable. So if you don't think of this as a scene, what are you thinking?
 

Now, all this talk of "scenes" has probably made you uncomfortable. So if you don't think of this as a scene, what are you thinking?

Not at all. I am happy if people find use in thinking of play in terms of scenes. And I am also happy to play this way if that is what the GM wants to do. I am just reporting some of the difficulty I have with thinking of the game in those terms as a GM. When I have more time I will address some of your specific thoughts in the post (a lot there and not enough time at the moment to digest and respond to it all).
 

The fact that nothing really happens in those establishing "shots" is why I would consider this a single scene. For all practical purposes, you could have just cut and banged to the scene where you were on the third floor balcony of the gambling hall, and indeed a lot of GMs would have done so. However, the establishing shots at least give the players some minimal understanding of where they are, and if you didn't have them you'd need to have a larger "Bang" to explain how and where they were before confronting Iron God Meng. Since you've expressed a preference for short less literary bangs, you've guided the players to the bang in a series of steps.

Keep in mind, plenty of stuff is assumed to happen in those earlier moments. If I started the example when the players approached the city (which would have occurred prior to this moment in play), they would have seen soldiers checking people as they come into the city (stopping roughly 1 in every 10 people randomly for searches). Prior to that, there would have been their journey to the city, which would have been handled with daily survival rolls and campaign. Prior to that the city they were in before, a bunch of stuff happened that caused them to want to come to Tung-On.

However in this example I would never have jumped right to the players on the steps of the balcony because I have no idea where they are going to go, what they are going to do, when they enter to city. The players in this example chose to go see Iron God Meng, but they just as easily could have asked to go see the magistrate to complain about Meng, or sought out a physician to help with some ailments, or checked out an inn, etc.
 

As you might have guessed from my variation on your example of play, I tend to treat each bang as establishing at least a potentially meaningful scene. If the players are stopped at the door to the gambling hall, that's because something meaningful can occur here. If the players are stopped on the street, then its because the street vendors are potentially important. If they weren't, I wouldn't have even mentioned them, and would have just jumped to the bang where they arrive at the gambling hall confronted by doorkeepers in blue garb.

This isn't how I do things. I mention the things I think they would see, with the understanding they might try to explore those things. For example, maybe they find a tailor in the stalls to make Lucky Mountain Gambling Hall Robes so they can pull some sort of scheme.

The reason they are not hindered at the door, is because it is a gambling hall and wants customers. It is not a private club. If the players had been doing something, or dressed in a way that would have made them undesirable, they might have met with issues.
 

The fact that nothing really happens in those establishing "shots" is why I would consider this a single scene.

Just one thought on this. One of the reasons I don't want to hand wave passed things like this, is you don't know if anything is going to happen until the players act. I might think entering the city is unimportant. But a player might surprise me and try to do something at that moment. I like giving players ample opportunity to interact with the setting how they like
 

Hussar

Legend
But as soon as the player tells you his intentions to go to the casino you know what the next scene is. It’s already established- go to the casino to confront Iron God Meng.

How would the players even think to find a tailor? They have stated what they want to do. Do your players routinely change direction before the even start?

But, in any event you have a scene - the casino. Whether you do a canned description or expect the players to ask questions is simply a difference in preference not substance.

At the end of the day you still describe ie narrate, the scene.
 

But as soon as the player tells you his intentions to go to the casino you know what the next scene is. It’s already established- go to the casino to confront Iron God


Their intentions could change or adjust adjust at any point. I don’t know how they will react as they see more details and observe things on their approach.

How would the players even think to find a tailor? They have stated what they want to do. Do your players routinely change direction before the even start?

i used that as an example because my players try stuff like that all the time. It isn’t a stretch to ask if there is a tailor in the marketplace. And yes they do routinely shift gears if someone suggests a better plan on the way (this happens frequently)

But, in any event you have a scene - the casino. Whether you do a canned description or expect the players to ask questions is simply a difference in preference not substance.

At the end of the day you still describe ie narrate, the scene.

A casino is a location, not a scene.

that isn’t a canned description. Insisting it is so, doesn’t make it so. Also, I do genuinely try to factor in ongoing events. This was an artificial example. But if I had more context, that description of Meng would be more specific to the moment most likely.
 

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