The logistics of the squire

Greenfield

Adventurer
This is a sort of follow up thread to the "Fashionable and Practical" thread.

In that thread we touched on the idea of adventurers having hirelings to help set up camp, prepare meals, and generally handle the task of schlepping gear around.

Recognizing that under the mechanics of just about any RP system, PCs are significantly tougher and more likely to survive the surprise attack than the support staff.

So how do we, the heroes of the tale, manage to keep our hired help from being folded, spindled and mutilated?

The knight in shining armor wants his squire there to hand him his lance, but doesn't want him trampled by the Mongol hordes that may arrive at any moment.

Is it an arrangement with the DM that the aides are somehow ignored/spared when the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch gets used, left unmolested when the Giants come to visit, somehow out of the way when the landslide or Fireball lands?

Or do the PCs have to keep hiring new help?

What's your solution?
 
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Dandu

First Post
The Leadership feat does exist for this sort of thing, but obviously the best solution involves a pile of dead bards.
 

Celebrim

Legend
You've hit immediately on the difficulty with the 'squire' strategy. It works only on one condition, that the random encounters the 'squires' will have near the entrance to the dungeon will not be nearly as difficult as the encounters in the dungeon.

In general, I've never seen taking the henchmen into the dungeon work. Eventually everyone has to make a saving throw, and the henchmen dies. But the same tends to also be true of mounts as well. Mounts are a pain in the dungeon, and rarely survive it. So the best reason for having 'squires' is to protect the mounts, and preferably the mounts include some semi-intelligent beasts that can help protect themselves. Generally speaking, if a henchmen soaks up more buffs and healing resources to keep them alive than their contribution mitigates the need for, you have to keep them out of the dungeon because they aren't an asset but a drain on the party.

Generally speaking, if you want to keep your squires alive you have to a fair number of them, and be fairly generous with them in terms of sharing XP and treasure. This might not work in some modern adventure styles like a 3.X or Pathfinder adventure path where the PC's rate of leveling and wealth advancement is so tightly and necessarily controlled. But in an more open and less linear adventuring environment, and in particular when the amount of gold you pull out of the dungeon determines the amount of XP you get, squires can be invaluable because any shared XP is more than made up for by the efficiency with which you can pull gold out of the dungeon by depositing it with the squires and the rest of the baggage train.

The ideal set of 'squires' is a mini-adventuring party all on its own, ideally complete with its own arcane and clerical resources. The function of this mini-adventuring party is to set up and protect a base camp near the party's intended destination, and protect the mounts and baggage as well as give the main party a fortified position to fall back to in the event of retreat. The idea base camp is concealed and defensible. A small ruins or cave or other lair near the main dungeon having been previously cleared of monsters makes a good base camp. The party should immediately begin fortifying or concealing the position by camouflaging it (permanent illusions?) or building simple traps and improving the fighting position near at the entrance of the lair to give early warning of anything that might sneak up on the position. This is always a difficult decision, and there is no perfect solution, since you never know what the DM will decide has come along and whether hiding the lair entrance makes it more noticeable or less, or having traps tells something wandering casually by that something important is up when they might otherwise go along their merry way. Many of the decisions a sniper team has to make in hostile territory are applicable, though keeping in mind that its highly unlikely that the 'squires' can be as stealthy as a two man sniper team - nor can they just move around freely if they fear discovery. Judging the capabilities of the squire and the sort of enemies that they might attract can inform these decisions.

Players can reasonably expect that the base camp will suffer random encounters at roughly the same rate that the party would in the same circumstances. An encounter every few days or nights is typical. The bad news about this is that the squires might die. The good news about this is that if they don't, they'll level up faster. A reasonable DM will take into account the precautions taken by the base camp on a case by case basis. Some DMs will run the combat more or less in their head, making decisions about what likely would have happened. Others may actually allow the PC's to run their squires encounters when they happen, particularly if none of that amounts to spoilers and they have a fair amount of trust that the PC's won't metagame.

I'm quite certain by experience that the 'squires' concept works in 1e/2e AD&D and similar old school systems. I'm much less certain that it works in 3.X or later games, simply because I've never seen it work but I've also never seen it carried out well by an experienced party. I do know that it is in some ways harder to carry out in 3.X than in earlier games, because of the different ways that characters level up in the more modern games. The amount of XP required to level up in 1e/2e was exponential, so that squires quickly 'caught up' to the PC's in prowess if they survived. If you had 1/4 of the XP of a PC, you were not that far behind them. Even taking only half shares of XP and missing out on many encounters, squires could get quite potent on their own - so much so that squires were often considered replacement PC's or secondary characters that a player might eventually turn into primary characters if the primary died or entered semi-retirement after obtaining name level. But XP in 3.X and later editions if you have 1/4 of the XP of a PC, you might not be able to contribute to the party at all.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
The Leadership feat does exist for this sort of thing, but obviously the best solution involves a pile of dead bards.

Many characters don't have a Feat to spare for that, and I've played with DMs who hate/disallow the feat: They don't want to have to deal with a PC who has a small army of hangers-on following them around.

When my characters have taken that feat I try to work with the DM so my characters followers are friends/business associates in various places, more "connections" than followers in any physical sense.

Even with that, though, the issue remains: How does a lower level cohort/follower/hireling survive being near high level PCs (also known as "Fireball Magnets")?
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Celebrim brings up a good point, regarding EXP and advancement. Do NPCs share party EXP? How do they advance?

To me an important point would be that a hireling, by whatever name, is an NPC. They aren't an excuse/opportunity for someone to play two or more characters in the game.

Since they're almost always going to be in over their heads, I think that their favorite combat maneuver will be that one immortalized in Monty Python's Holy Grail: "Run Away! Run Away!", or as it's more commonly known, Withdrawal.

Normally PCs suffer substantial penalties for early withdrawal, as the banks used to say, but for non-combatants (as hirelings usually are) it's really the only way to stay alive sometimes. I expect that any Hireling I used would quickly become proficient with Tower Shield, and the 100% cover it provides.
 

bgbarcus

Explorer
Henchmen in my game are pseudo-NPC adventurers employed by the PCs. Their only restriction is that they must stay lower level than their employer. I don't give henchmen an equal share of XP - they receive XP equal to 50% of what their employer receives when they participate in the adventure, or 25% when they are not in the adventure. This keeps the henchmen at useful levels to either support their employer in future dungeons, as aids in a dominion, or to become a PC if their employer dies.

The squire that comes with a noble background is treated as a henchman who does not have the option to leave (as DM I always have the final say on what a henchman does).

Hirelings (porters, men-at-arms, wagon drivers, etc.) are almost always ignored in any combat. If the PCs left a bunch of hirelings at the mouth of a dungeon with leaving a few henchmen to defend them, I might roll random encounters as a reminder that the PCs have a responsibility to help defend their hirelings. OTOH, a battle at camp will not involve hirelings - they dive for cover under wagons, scramble up trees, tuck themselves between rocks, or whatever is necessary to stay out of the fight.
 

Dandu

First Post
Many characters don't have a Feat to spare for that, and I've played with DMs who hate/disallow the feat: They don't want to have to deal with a PC who has a small army of hangers-on following them around.

When my characters have taken that feat I try to work with the DM so my characters followers are friends/business associates in various places, more "connections" than followers in any physical sense.

Even with that, though, the issue remains: How does a lower level cohort/follower/hireling survive being near high level PCs (also known as "Fireball Magnets")?

Unseen Servant being the low level spell that it is, an item of such would be relatively inexpensive. Perhaps it would be acceptable to have your knight in shining armor blessed with a divine attendant beholden to the holder of a reliquary which is treated in all other respects as an item of Unseen Servant?

Such an item does exist.

Collar of Perpetual Attendance: At will, the wearer of this collar can call an unseen servant, as the spell, to attend and clean up after him or another creature he designates. The unseen servant performs such mundane tasks as cleaning up hairballs and policing the wearer's litter box. It also grooms the wearer on command, removing burrs, smoothing tangles, and ensuring that the wearer's fur remains soft and well-tended.

Caster Level: 1st; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, unseen servant; Market Price: 2,000 gp; Weight: 1/4 lb.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
after learning about the 13th Century Routiers in Europe, I decided that DnD adventuring parties are Mercenary companies, the PCs are elite strike teams whereas the hirelings are the lower rank fighters who as per Celebrims discussion are left back to set up and defend base camp.

A Follower that is brought into a dungeon should be running for cover if a big encounter occurs or else they are fair game for dying.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Many characters don't have a Feat to spare for that, and I've played with DMs who hate/disallow the feat: They don't want to have to deal with a PC who has a small army of hangers-on following them around.

I admit to hating the feat. And I admit that having a small army of hangers-on following the PC's around can be annoying. But I don't disallow the feat for that reason. I disallow it because it tries to take something that is an attribute of the PC's social status and turn it into a simple mechanical benefit. I tend to disallow any feat that can be replicated simply by role-play. Nothing stops a player from hiring retainers, acquiring henchmen, or attracting followers if they have the resources - money, fame, social standing - to do that. Turning it into a feat rubs me wrong.

Even with that, though, the issue remains: How does a lower level cohort/follower/hireling survive being near high level PCs (also known as "Fireball Magnets")?

You don't bring them into situations where you think they are going to be facing what is for you peer level foes. The hirelings aren't there to help you take on the BBEG, bosses, and mini-bosses. They can generally help against minions and random encounters, at which point they can be useful meat shields and damage dealers, saving resources so that you'll be better prepared in the event of a BBEG. And they can guard the steeds, mules, and so forth while you are down in the dungeon. If you randomly happen on something that is lethal for their CR - say a dragon - their job is to get the baggage and the steeds out of the way and the PC's job is to hold the dragon's attention on them. If they are not capable of surviving even that, they shouldn't be along - they should be back at your stronghold guarding your stuff (and later on, your family). A score of 2nd or 3rd level characters might not be useful in the dungeon, but they can help deter the low level thieves that might otherwise pilfer your town home. Not that that will necessarily stop a RBDM from slaughtering your minions and kidnapping your family when you are down in the dungeon, but that how these serialized stories work anyway, so roll with it.

All of this depends on the world and the adventures being constructed in a certain way, a way that I'd gather is increasingly rare as 'scholarly' opinion turns toward plotted 'scenes' and 'bangs' and so forth and away from stories arising naturally as a consequence of interaction with the setting. If every encounter happens as a bang with no physical travel between locations, then yes, what's the point of henchmen that are just going to die anyway.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
This keeps the henchmen at useful levels to either support their employer in future dungeons, as aids in a dominion, or to become a PC if their employer dies.

Thank you: squires are PC-replacements. And that is a primary benefit of the Leadership feat - written or no.

The hard part is keeping them around. The first time your boss says, "we're going into the field today," and then you see him get doused in flame or petrified by a basilisk, well, you're probably going to change careers. The phrase "you can't pay me enough..." comes to mind.

In the case of a follower who keeps up in level, and can possibly survive some of these traumatic events, staying on the sidelines to hand the knight another lance is a viable, and safe, option. That follower could even go into the dungeon, but would be well advised to carry a large shield, and use it, at all times.
[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION]: how do NPCs advance? Purely at the discretion of Rule Zero. It's a pretty big waste of time to use another system for that.
 

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