Game Mechanics And Player Agency

The concept of player agency is a central pillar of all role-playing games. It is a balancing factor against the omnipotent, omniscient Game Master. For the purposes of this article, we will be focusing on the smaller-scale application of player agency and the role of game mechanics that negate or modify such agency.


From the very first iteration of Dungeons & Dragons in 1974, there have been mechanics in place in RPGs to force certain decisions upon players. A classic D&D example is the charm person spell, which allows the spell caster to bring someone under their control and command. (The 1983 D&D Basic Set even includes such a possible outcome in its very first tutorial adventure, in which your hapless Fighter may fall under the sway of Bargle and "decide" to let the outlaw magic-user go free even after murdering your friend Aleena!)

It didn't take long for other RPGs to start experimenting with even greater mechanical methods of limiting player agency. Call of Cthulhu (1981) introduced the Sanity mechanic as a way of tracking the player-characters' mental stress and degeneration in the face of mind-blasting horrors. But the Temporary Insanity rules also dictated that PCs exposed to particularly nasty shocks were no longer necessarily in control of their own actions. The current edition of the game even gives the Call of Cthulhu GM carte blanche to dictate the hapless investigator's fate, having the PC come to their senses hours later having been robbed, beaten, or even institutionalized!

King Arthur Pendragon debuted in 1985 featuring even more radical behavioral mechanics. The game's system of Traits and Passions perfectly mirrors the Arthurian tales, in which normally sensible and virtuous knights and ladies with everything to lose risk it all in the name of love, hatred, vengeance, or petty jealousy. So too are the player-knights of the game driven to foolhardy heroism or destructive madness, quite often against the players' wishes. Indeed, suffering a bout of madness in Pendragon is enough to put a player-knight out of the game sometimes for (quite literally) many game-years on end…and if the player-knight does return, they are apt to have undergone significant trauma reflected in altered statistics.

The legacies of Call of Cthulhu and King Arthur Pendragon have influenced numerous other game designs down to this day, and although the charm person spell is not nearly as all-powerful as it was when first introduced in 1974 ("If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the 'charm' is dispelled[.]"), it and many other mind-affecting spells and items continue to bedevil D&D adventurers of all types.

Infringing on player agency calls for great care in any circumstance. As alluded to at the top of this article, GMs already have so much power in the game, that to appear to take any away from the players is bound to rankle. This is likely why games developed mechanical means to allow GMs to do so in order to make for a more interesting story without appearing biased or arbitrary. Most players, after all, would refuse to voluntarily submit to the will of an evil wizard, to faint or flee screaming in the presence of cosmic horror, or to attack an ally or lover in a blind rage. Yet these moments are often the most memorable of a campaign, and they are facilitated by behavioral mechanics.

What do you think? What's your personal "red line" for behavioral mechanics? Do behavioral mechanics have any place in RPGs, and if so, to what extent? Most crucially: do they enhance narrative or detract from it?

contributed by David Larkins
 

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G

Guest 6801328

Guest
What's the difference between agreeing to flip a coin and agreeing to a mechanical resolution?

If you want to roleplay flipping a coin, that's fine. Your character grudgingly agrees to the other character's plan because in-game he lost the coin toss. The roll of the die is modeling the in-game coin flip.

That's categorically different from using the roll of the die to determine who persuades whom.
 

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pemerton

Legend
If you want to roleplay flipping a coin, that's fine. Your character grudgingly agrees to the other character's plan because in-game he lost the coin toss. The roll of the die is modeling the in-game coin flip.

That's categorically different from using the roll of the die to determine who persuades whom.
Sure. I wasn't talking about roleplaying flipping a coin.

EDIT: I was replying to posts that suggested that the resolution process I described suppressed player agency. If players are happy to resolve the debate between PCs in some mechanical fashion, that is no more a burden on their agency than agreeing to flip a coin. That's my point.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Ok, here's a (potentially) new way of looking at this:

A couple of posters have made the argument, "When somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide that your character is unaffected, so why should you be able to do so when somebody makes a successful Persuasion roll against you?"

It's true: when somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide to not take the damage. But how you respond to it, rationally or irrationally, is up to you. You could flee, you could fight back, you could try to parlay, you could burst into song, you could get angry/sad/friendly/horny/etc. Your response is entirely yours. It's totally reasonable to counter this by saying, "Nuh-uh...when somebody hits you with a sword and nearly kills you it's just not reasonable or realistic to suddenly feel like singing." But that's what makes RPGs so unpredictable and great: you do get to decide such things.

So let's say we can agree that a successful Persuasion check does in fact persuade a PC. Of what? I would argue that at most you succeed in persuading the PC that (for example) your plan is the best plan. Or that rescuing the Duke's daughter is a good idea. Or whatever. But that's not the same as persuading the PC to do something.

If it were, then all those anti-smoking ads would actually reduce smoking. Right? (For the uninitiated, all the research shows that smokers generally do believe the messages of those ads, and they just don't care.)

The difference between persuading somebody that something is true, and that as a result a certain course of action makes the most sense, is vastly different from persuading them to actually take action.

"Yes, I can see the sense of that. And I'm insulted that he thinks it's all about money for me, so I'm still not going to help him."

So, although I still don't love the idea that a dice roll dictates what my character believes, I'd be willing to compromise and agree that I can be persuaded of the truth of something. As long as how I respond to that truth is still mine to determine. And fair is fair: the same thing is true when PCs persuade NPCs: you can change beliefs but you can't compel behaviors.

(Unless magic, of course. Because only magic can also compel the behavior.)

This involves being careful with phrasing: you don't persuade the guard to let you through; you persuade the guard that you are friends with the King.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Sure. I wasn't talking about roleplaying flipping a coin.

EDIT: I was replying to posts that suggested that the resolution process I described suppressed player agency. If players are happy to resolve the debate between PCs in some mechanical fashion, that is no more a burden on their agency than agreeing to flip a coin. That's my point.
I think you're arguing against something no one is claiming, though. Is there a specific post or poster you had in mind? I may have missed it.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Sure. I wasn't talking about roleplaying flipping a coin.

EDIT: I was replying to posts that suggested that the resolution process I described suppressed player agency. If players are happy to resolve the debate between PCs in some mechanical fashion, that is no more a burden on their agency than agreeing to flip a coin. That's my point.

The difference is that one requires specific roleplaying, the other does not. I can react to an in-game coin flip however I choose. (Anger, reneging on the agreement, relief, etc.) But apparently there are restrictions on how I am supposed to react to somebody else's Persuade roll. "You can react however you want, as long as you are persuaded."
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Ok, here's a (potentially) new way of looking at this:

A couple of posters have made the argument, "When somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide that your character is unaffected, so why should you be able to do so when somebody makes a successful Persuasion roll against you?"

It's true: when somebody makes a successful attack roll against you, you can't decide to not take the damage. But how you respond to it, rationally or irrationally, is up to you. You could flee, you could fight back, you could try to parlay, you could burst into song, you could get angry/sad/friendly/horny/etc. Your response is entirely yours. It's totally reasonable to counter this by saying, "Nuh-uh...when somebody hits you with a sword and nearly kills you it's just not reasonable or realistic to suddenly feel like singing." But that's what makes RPGs so unpredictable and great: you do get to decide such things.

It depends on the system how this all works. In D&D 5e, I would have to question why the DM is making a Charisma (Persuasion) roll for an NPC to influence a PC in the first place. The DM uses an ability check when the result of a task is uncertain and there is a meaningful consequence of failure. But the rules plainly say that the player is the one who decides how the character acts and thinks and what he or she says. Which means that, in fact, the result of the task to influence a PC's thinking isn't uncertain at all - it's whatever the player says it is. Therefore, there is no need for an ability check in the first place. The DM simply describes the attempts at persuasion (or deception or intimidation) and asks "What do you do?"

Some folks use a check from the NPC to decide how to describe the NPC's attempt. That's not part of the adjudication process and strikes me as a belief that "if any given action smells like a skill check could apply then roll for it." But as long as it's used only to inform the DM's description of the attempt and has no mechanical impact on the PC, it's fine in my view even if I don't see a need for it.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It depends on the system how this all works. In D&D 5e, I would have to question why the DM is making a Charisma (Persuasion) roll for an NPC to influence a PC in the first place.
I also question having an NPC roll a 'persuasion' check. The usual flow of 5e is that the DM describes the situation, the players declare actions, and the DM narrates the results of those actions (possibly calling for a roll). A player, it seems to me, is unlikely to say "I want to be persuaded to do something I don't want to do, and will refuse to do anyway!" I mean, even the kind of player who likes to play CN Chaos Sorcerer Pixies with ADD, probably wouldn't come up with that one.

Rather, in the "Duke's daughter is kidnapped" scenario, the party might hear about the event and decide they want to go see the Duke, and, once there, that they'd help look for her, for a price (baby needs a new set of plate), which would then be negotiated, with the DM possibly calling for a persuasion check... from the player of the 'face' PC, or even a group check, to get the best price for their mercenary services.

But the rules plainly say that the player is the one who decides how the character acts and thinks and what he or she says. Which means that, in fact, the result of the task to influence a PC's thinking isn't uncertain at all - it's whatever the player says it is. Therefore, there is no need for an ability check in the first place.
The rules also still say 'specific beats general' so when a PC is charmed, frightened, confused, possessed, or whatever (loses a contested check, picks up a cursed magic item, gets really drunk, etc), he might act, think, & say things a bit differently.
 
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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I also question having an NPC roll a 'persuasion' check. The usual flow of 5e is that the DM describes the situation, the players declare actions, and the DM narrates the results of those actions (possibly calling for a roll). A player, it seems to me, is unlikely to say "I want to be persuaded to do something I don't want to do, and will refuse to do anyway!" I mean, even the kind of player who likes to play CN Chaos Sorcerer Pixies with ADD, probably wouldn't come up with that one.

I suspect it's something like "anything that smells like it could be a check gets one." Kind of like "If lie, then Deception check" or "If threaten, then Intimidation check." It's skipping to the mechanic before thinking about whether the mechanic is needed. This may be particularly true at tables where the players ask to make checks or just make them outright without prompting, since the expectation is that the DM relies on die rolls for almost everything. So then you're left with, okay, I made a check for this NPC, but I can't really tell the player how to have his or her character act, so I guess they can do whatev's, even if I strongly imply they should act a particular way.

And then not thinking too hard about how strange that is.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I suspect it's something like "anything that smells like it could be a check gets one." Kind of like "If lie, then Deception check" or "If threaten, then Intimidation check." It's skipping to the mechanic before thinking about whether the mechanic is needed.
Sure, that's, in part, assuming uncertainty. Where I was more thinking in terms of who's making the check...

...that is, the PCs should be making checks to resolve /their/ actions. Now, maybe it'd be a contested check, and maybe the DM would make it behind the screen...

... and, of course, in any D&D other than 5e (or a 4e skill challenge) I wouldn't consider an NPC making a check to be a red flag.

This may be particularly true at tables where the players ask to make checks or just make them outright without prompting, since the expectation is that the DM relies on die rolls for almost everything. So then you're left with, okay, I made a check for this NPC...
Players /do/ call out checks or even results of checks without asking, sometimes - moreso if they've played 3.5 or a lot of BRP back in the day, perhaps - and, yeah, I might expect the Chaotic Silly player to blurt out "Make a _______ check for him!" more than I would the above action declaration... but I still probably wouldn't /do/ it. ;P And, it'd still be pretty far afield from the assumed 5e flow of play.

Assuming it was player-instigated, though, it'd hardly be unfair to expect said instigating player to abide by it.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I think you're arguing against something no one is claiming, though. Is there a specific post or poster you had in mind? I may have missed it.
Yes there is. I posted some examples - reported by others (Luke Crane) and reported by me, from the play of my own campaigns - where social resolution mechanics were used to settle disputes between players (and thus PCs) about what to do next.
[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] posted saying that what I described was awful - Lanefan doesn't like using mechanics to settle an argument at the table; and billd91 claimed it was a signficant abridgement of player agency.

My view is that players agreeing to toss a coin doesn't abridge their agency; and that - by pretty strict analogy - players agreeing to be bound by the outcome of a resolution process doesn't either.

The difference is that one requires specific roleplaying, the other does not. I can react to an in-game coin flip however I choose. (Anger, reneging on the agreement, relief, etc.) But apparently there are restrictions on how I am supposed to react to somebody else's Persuade roll. "You can react however you want, as long as you are persuaded."
I'm not 100% sure what you have in mind here. I was replying to a post by [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION], which was in turn a response to a particular post of mine, about using a mechanical system to resolve an argument between players about what to do next.

Here is a repost:

Luke Crane does comment, in one of the Burning Wheel rulebooks, that in his experience the use of social mechanics to resolve PC vs PC arguments does (i) help the group at the table reach consensus on what to do next, and (ii) makes players feel more comfortable to have their PC argue with another PC, precisely because there's a way of resolving it at the table which sees the game go on, rather than having everything grind to a halt due to this social issue with no straightforward resolution.

In my Cortex+ Heroic game the PCs argue with one another from time to time, inflicting mental or emotional stress on one another (because some of the PCs have milestones which yield XP when this happens, some of the players are always on the lookout for a chance to do this). In my 4e game once, and in my Classic Traveller game more than once, I've used an impromptu social mechanic to resolve a seemingly interminable PC-vs-PC argument about what to do next - eg in Traveller I have each side roll, with a side that includes a noble, or a PC with Leader expertise, getting bonuses.

The side that loses agrees to go along with the side that wins - at the table first and foremost, and therefore in the fiction also.

I should also add that, at least once in my BW campaign, a dispute between PCs has been resolved via Duel of Wits.

As I've explained, I don't believe that this sort of resolution burdens player agency, for just the same reason that agreeing to toss a coin would.
 

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