Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

Crothian

First Post
This is typically the kind of thing I expect professional designers like Paizo to not release in the first place.

Why would you expect this? Over the three decades I've been gaming the one constant from game to game, company to company is that they don't really play test and bad mechanics get published. This is nothing new. We saw it with TSR, we saw it with West End Games, White Wolf, Palladium. I never followed GURPS or Hero but I'd be surprised if they never introduced something that that broke the game. I think you are expecting way too much of game designers. Also, while there are complaints from fans about it they still buy the books so there is little incentive for these companies to stop doing this.
 

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EnglishLanguage

First Post
Why would you expect this? Over the three decades I've been gaming the one constant from game to game, company to company is that they don't really play test and bad mechanics get published. This is nothing new. We saw it with TSR, we saw it with West End Games, White Wolf, Palladium. I never followed GURPS or Hero but I'd be surprised if they never introduced something that that broke the game. I think you are expecting way too much of game designers. Also, while there are complaints from fans about it they still buy the books so there is little incentive for these companies to stop doing this.

I try to be optimistic.
 

pemerton

Legend
Dude these are the same thing
No they're not. Denying that something is traditional magic is not the same as asserting that it is non-traditional magic. Nor does it entail that it is non-traditional magic. At most it raises a question - "OK, is it non-traditional magic, or is it something else altogether?" The paragraph in question goes on to explain what it is - it is the ability to do extraordinary things that ordinary people can't do, and it is not like clerical prayer or casting a spell. Whether or not it is a type of non-traditional magic - whatever exactly that might mean - is left open.

4e is the first edition to explicitly label a fighter's abilities as such... or is it not magic?? Which one are you now claiming it is?
It does not explicitly label fighter's ability as magic. It explicitly labels them as being something other than traditional magic. That could include either non-traditional magic, or non-magic. (Should I draw a Venn diagram?)

As to which of those it is, I've now repeated over several posts that the game leaves it open. I even quoted an epic destiny description where you can see the game authors leaving it open - an Eternal Defender might be infused with divine power, or be driven by implacable will. That's a deliberate design decision, the purpose of which is to make it viable to write up sufficiently epic powers for martial PCs while leaving it open for any given table and any given player how they want to handle Hercules, Aragorn or Beowulf at their table.

The key thing is that martial powers don't have damage keywords such as acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, force, psychic, radiant or necrotic. That is, they're nearly all untyped, ordinary physical damage. Some deliver poison damage, but if you look at those powers (eg the Executioner Assassin) it's clear that those actually involve brewing and applying poisons.

Martial powers don't have teleportation keywords (except for the rogue spell-thief power that let's you piggyback on someone else's teleport). They don't have zone or conjuration keywords (which are the actual targets of Dispel Magic in the 4e system). And they don't have the illusion, charm or sleep keywords (so, for example, the rogue abilities that permit invisibility don't have the illusion keyword - they are not illusion spells like the wizard's Invisibility spell, which does have that keyword - the invisibility is simply a mechanical implementation of stealth without the need for a roll). In other words, martial abilities do not generate magical effects. They generate the same sorts of effects that fighters and rogues have always produced in D&D - weapon attacks, jumping, hiding, dodging blows, etc.

No one denies that the mechanical implementation is different from other versions of D&D - in particular, there is a much more rationing-by-limitation (eg a rogue being able to turn invisible once per day) than rationing-by-lottery (eg a rogue making a Stealth check to hide), but that is about mechanics, not about the fiction. If you project expectations from 3E or PF about mechanics-to-fiction correlation, as [MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION] does, and hence assert that because a rogue's power is rationed by usage limitations it must be a spell, you are simply missing the point of the mechanics, which are precisely intended to decouple player choices from character choices in certain cases, and to replace ration-by-lottery with other forms of rationing. 4e is hardly the only RPG on the market to do this, even for non-magical abilities.

Well seeing as the troll's ability is a racial trait, that every single one of their race has I'd argue there's an argument for it being biological??
What does that even mean? It's a racial trait of a pixie to turn invisible, or of a dragon to breathe fire, so they're biological too? When you're talking about a fantasy world, with being who can breathe fire and turn invisible and regenerate decapitated heads as part of their inherent nature, there is no obvious contrast between biology and magic.
 

pemerton

Legend
Seeing as how not everybody agrees with this assessment, then calling them as you see them might be interpreted by some as condescending rudeness directed at the things they actually like. Which is not, in my experience, generally a good way to sway others towards your point of view.
Would that be a bit like insisting that martial powers in 4e are really magical, and hence that fighters and rogues in 4e are really casters?
 

pemerton

Legend
If I don't know a creature, and it draws a sword, I'll likely take that as threatening. Same thing with someone casting a spell.
If casting Charm Person on a stranger is always threatening, because casting spells in the presence of a stranger is always threatening, then when is the +5 to save not going to apply?

What do you think the hill giant thinks you are breaking into its home for?
How is approaching the entrance to the Steading of the Hill Giant Chieftain breaking into its home?

Heck, even if I'm inside the Steading, how does any random giant know I'm an intruder? Perhaps I'm a guest. Perhaps I've been sent by Obmi to check up on things, and so am an important guest.

How well you can trick a creature is dependent upon your Charisma.
I think it is also dependent upon the victim's INT. It is easier to trick a child than an adult, for instance - I know, I have two children. Their lesser experience and knowledge of how the world works counts against them.

If it's not easier to trick a hill giant or an ogre than (say) a storm giant or a rakshasa, then what's the point of the INT score? And what's the point of GMing advice that encourages the GM to play NPCs in accordance with their mental stats (including INT)?

In non-threatened situations, a creature does not get the bonus. This would include people you meet in the market, pub, or anywhere were you are not actually trespassing while fully armed.
It seems that some posters (eg Jameson Courage) take the view that any spell casting in situations of uncertainty or unfamiliarity is a threat.

Anyway, if Charm Monster isn't viable in your guys' games for getting into the Steading, I guess I'll have to resort to bringing along a boring Conjurer instead. At 7th level, with the same two Focus feats, the save DC for Glitterdust is 18, so 65% of the giants in the 10' R spread - probably two out of three guards - are blinded (70% if I use the PF Hill Giant stats, because their saves are all 1 worse than 3E ones). And the range is 170', so I can be well out of sight or behind cover when I cast it. If I bring out Grease s a follow up, the DC is 18, so with a +3 (or +2) Reflex save somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of the giants in the 10' square will fall over, and half the rest of the giants will slip and slide as they try to close (with DEX of 8 they need an 11 to make a DC 10 Acro check; a bit more than half of them - those who roll 6 or less - will actually fall over).

Personally I think the enchanter makes for a more interesting game.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
If casting Charm Person on a stranger is always threatening, because casting spells in the presence of a stranger is always threatening, then when is the +5 to save not going to apply?

How is approaching the entrance to the Steading of the Hill Giant Chieftain breaking into its home?

Heck, even if I'm inside the Steading, how does any random giant know I'm an intruder? Perhaps I'm a guest. Perhaps I've been sent by Obmi to check up on things, and so am an important guest.

And in some of these contexts, the spell will be a better strategy than others, particularly when you consider the disposition of your wizard's traveling companions. If the four (or more) of you barge into a room and you expect the spell to work without the bonus, you're probably out of luck, same with wandering about the steading - really, it's not that big and the hill giants probably know what guests are on hand. Catching one by relative surprise from the edge of the spell's range and your chances will improve because there'd be less reason to apply the +5.


Anyway, if Charm Monster isn't viable in your guys' games for getting into the Steading, I guess I'll have to resort to bringing along a boring Conjurer instead.

It's not a question of it being non-viable. It's a matter of not oversimplifying the difficulties of using some of these supposedly instant-win spell caster tactics. By all means, use charm monster, but realize that it has its limitations, particularly against a wary target and may not always get you exactly the results you want.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
EN World won't let me quote you right now, so I'm replying as best I can.
pemerton said:
If casting Charm Person on a stranger is always threatening, because casting spells in the presence of a stranger is always threatening, then when is the +5 to save not going to apply?
I actually gave an example that you cut from your reply. Isn't that convenient?

The +5 won't apply when it's not threatening. To most strangers (especially violent strangers whose space you've invaded alongside heavily armed individuals), that's most likely potentially harmful, and thus threatening. If, however, you can establish that you're no threat (through Bluff, Diplomacy, talking it out, whatever), then the +5 wouldn't factor in. Like in my example that you cut for some reason ("let me cast a protective spell on you, friend *casts Charm Person*").
pemerton said:
It seems that some posters (eg Jameson Courage) take the view that any spell casting in situations of uncertainty or unfamiliarity is a threat.
You put words in my mouth again, and we're done. Just in general on this board. Okay? Because that's incredibly not cool. You discuss things with me in good faith or we don't discuss things anymore.
pemerton said:
Anyway, if Charm Monster isn't viable in your guys' games for getting into the Steading, I guess I'll have to resort to bringing along a boring Conjurer instead. At 7th level, with the same two Focus feats, the save DC for Glitterdust is 18, so 65% of the giants in the 10' R spread - probably two out of three guards - are blinded (70% if I use the PF Hill Giant stats, because their saves are all 1 worse than 3E ones). And the range is 170', so I can be well out of sight or behind cover when I cast it. If I bring out Grease s a follow up, the DC is 18, so with a +3 (or +2) Reflex save somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of the giants in the 10' square will fall over, and half the rest of the giants will slip and slide as they try to close (with DEX of 8 they need an 11 to make a DC 10 Acro check; a bit more than half of them - those who roll 6 or less - will actually fall over).
Yes, those spells can be useful, too. We're still talking about a niche situation.

If we go to other threats (such as that ghost I mentioned), you could blind it, but it can duck under the ground until the effect wears off ("Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see."). It also doesn't care about your Grease spell at all.

A huge earth elemental (also CR 7) can duck into the ground if it wants to wait out effects (like blindness), and even has tremorsense to keep up with you as you move. Or if you attacked from surprise, it could duck under, moving around to find you, then pop up to attack.

Again, you're making very focused characters with significant resources assigned towards a particular purpose, crafting a niche encounter where you're facing particularly vulnerable (all together for your Grease and Glitterdust, no doubt) foes when you've got the proper spells prepared, and then seem to be saying "see, it's not that risky."

I'll repeat myself: I have problems with save balances. I have problems with save or die spells as implemented by the game, even. But color me unimpressed by your carefully crafted scenario. Even if it pops up, so what? "Your character was very effective this encounter! All fun is lost!" I'm not even sure what the problem is with a very focused character shining every once in a while is.
 

Steely Dan

Banned
Banned
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 4th Ed trolling crap threaders aside, I actually offered tips to fix 3rd Ed, if you are not factually contributing, well, you know where to go.
 

Grydan

First Post
Dude these are the same thing and it doesn't matter how many times you add "sort of" or claim it's not.

The set of things that are 'not magic in the traditional sense' is not the same thing as the set of things that are 'non-traditional magic'.

To assert otherwise is to assert that all things are magic, with the only meaningful distinction being between those which are so in the traditional sense and those which are not.

Not(A in the sense of X) does not equal (A in the sense of Not(X)).

Friendship, despite what cartoon ponies have to say on the matter, is not magic in the traditional sense. Nor is it non-traditional magic. The only sense in which it is magic is the figurative one. (And to the best of my knowledge it is not affected by anti-magic fields ... though forcing your traditionally magic friends to spend prolonged periods of time in them may have a negative impact on your friendship.)
 

Steely Dan

Banned
Banned
The set of things that are 'not magic in the traditional sense' is not the same thing as the set of things that are 'non-traditional magic'.

To assert otherwise is to assert that all things are magic, with the only meaningful distinction being between those which are so in the traditional sense and those which are not.


No, you are being wilfully disingenuous, the language is clear, please stop trying to contort to uphold your what-have-you.
 

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