Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Imaro]

OK I'm sure I'm going to regret jumping into this battle skirmish of the edition war, but how does saying Martial power is not magic in the traditional sense the same as saying Martial power is magic?

It's saying that Martial Power is not magic in the traditional sense... Now even [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has acknowledged that this could mean magic (among other things) can power martial abilities (so yes there are actually 3 or more different views being discussed here... martial is magic, martial can be magic among other things and martial isn't magic whatsoever), and the book supports this in certain instances, so we've established martial power can be magic... the question then becomes why use the phrase ... not magic in the traditional sense, if it something other than or the opposite of magic?

If I said being a Striper isn't being a whore in a traditional sense, I could mean it is still being a whore, or that there is just some connection to whoreing.

So either way there is a connection between being a stripper and whoring... what I'm asking is does this phrase ever mean absolutely no attachment to whoring? Or can it mean being a stripper is the opposite of whoring? I would say no... and thus, at least by the logic above, martial power always has some connection to magic...

If I said Dexter isn't a superhero in a traditional sense, but if you look at the story it is very much a variant of the Batman story, then did I call him a superhero.

You called him a non-traditional superhero...

 

[herrozerro]

I think what the problem is that you (Imaro) are stating that all martial ability in 4e is magic. I was willing to buy that it's connected with magic sometimes. Being supernaturally quick to avoid a blow, or other examples like that. But you are saying that all martial ability is magic. And I think that is where the issue lies.

 

[Imaro]

I think what the problem is that you (Imaro) are stating that all martial ability in 4e is magic. I was willing to buy that it's connected with magic sometimes. Being supernaturally quick to avoid a blow, or other examples like that. But you are saying that all martial ability is magic. And I think that is where the issue lies.

No I'm saying the martial power source is magical (one of the reasons I wasn't getting into a power by power debate earlier)... individual abilities may or may not be powered by that magic since I agree there are some things among the exploits that I would say one can do without drawing specifically on the inherent/non-traditional magic of martial power... again see Earthdawn or Exalted (which I've been using as examples consistently), in those games they aren't incapable of fighting, jumping, climbing, etc at a decent level without drawing on magic but they do use magic to power their extraordinary abilities...

 

[Umbran]

Ladies and gents,

I see some folks getting a tad rude and personal lately in this thread. Consider this a warning to all: we expect you to show respect for your fellow posters, and their ideas. We expect you to treat each other well. Treating someone like "they're just some faceless person on the internet, and I don't care if I'm rude to them," is apt to turn out less than well, so please don't do it.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

I'll note that the "Martials are magic" crowd has yet to name a single magical ability that martial characters can do.

 

[herrozerro]

I'll note that the "Martials are magic" crowd has yet to name a single magical ability that martial characters can do.

Well duh, all of them. Because martial is magic. /sarcasm

 

[Chaltab]

I think this thread needs a new name since problems with Pathfinder are apparently not the topic everyone wants to discuss.

 

[billd91]

I don't understand barging into rooms - I talked about Charming the guards of the Steading.

I also personally don't see why, in a longhouse with 50 (or so? maybe a few less) hill giants in it, everyone would know who's there. I live in a very small house with 4 people, and sometimes the first I know that one of my co-habitees has come home is that a stranger comes into the room first, having come in with said co-habitee. I don't automatically assume that stranger is a threat. I assume s/he's a friend of my partner or child.

Are they carrying weapons, wearing armor, or otherwise equipped for violence? It might color your perceptions if they were. I think I'd react a bit differently to a 9 year old boy than I would to 4 grown men with guns drawn or even openly holstered.

I thought good GMing included a living world, dynamic situations, verisimilitude etc. Everyone knowing everyone's friends in a steading of 50 people plus similar numbers of slaves, servants etc doesn't seem that verisimilitudinous to me.

They've been raiding human/demi-human lands recently. Is it really that likely they've got a number of them over for supper? Or is it more likely that any ones you spot are scouts of a hostile group? Is it likely that human guests will be unescorted about the steading, for their own protection if nothing else? Or if the PCs approach the door guards, isn't it likely the door guards have a clue what sorts of legit guests might be coming?

Here is Room 1 of the Steading ("Entry and Cloak Room"):

2 snoring hill giants, supposedly guarding the entrance. There is a nearly empty keg of ale between them. Unless attacked and slain immediately, any molestation will enable one to alert the other guard . . . There is a 1 in 20 chance that any well-planned scheme to kill them will fail, otherwise they can be slain simultaneously and quiet maintained. . .

[A]nother hill giant guard is dozing. A flagon which contained mead is a this hand. An iron hoop and straight bar hanging on ropes from a rafter above will alert the place if struck together.​

I don't see why Charm isn't workable there.

Who talked about "insta-win"? (Other than you and [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION].) All I did was express doubt that using SoD (or other save-or-suck) spells was risky, which is what (from memory) [MENTION=91812]ForeverSlayer[/MENTION] asserted upthread.

It might be workable - again, it depends on the context of how the PCs approach the guards. A lone wizard being sneaky until he's close enough to hit a lone giant with the spell is pretty good justification for the giant not thinking he's threatened and for getting good use out of the giant. Approaching with 3 or more other guys armed to the teeth with other giants in the room - not so optimal, particularly since it's very easy for your companions to interfere with the spell's effect losing any influence on the giant. Thinking it's a gimmie just because you've got a charm spell and have invested a couple of feats into pumping your DC is the hubris that leads to trouble if your GM is putting the spell in its appropriate context. Thinking you can get the giant to do anything you want him to or that you can behave any way you want around him is another situation where you can get your PC and group into trouble.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'll note that the "Martials are magic" crowd has yet to name a single magical ability that martial characters can do.

Except for having done so over and over again. Healing surge. Done. Topic over.

Moreover, as we've also discussed. Use Magic Device and other ways of activating magic items are not in themselves magical abilities.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Except for having done so over and over again. Healing surge. Done. Topic over.

Not done because Healing Surges aren't magic unless they're triggered by magic.