Pathfinder 2E Do you think 1st or 2nd edition is more complicated?

[payn]

At level 1 you have how many iterative attacks? And how big is the BAB?

Most people start playing a game at level 1 and most campaigns go never above level 7.

Also "variable bab" is not hard to understand there is a literal table in PF1. Meanwhile in PF2 you have no such thing, you must look up your previous class features, then look up what the keywords mean to understand what your base attack modifier is (which is also higher than bab normally).


So PF2 starts more complex (with multiple attacks and penalty), has higher numbers, and has a way worse representation of basic information like base attack modifier and saves etc.

Well, if we are sliding the goal post to level 1-7... Right from the get go you have move action, standard action, free action, swift action, attack of opportunity action, actions im probably forgetting about actions in PF1... You have class, multi-class, archetypes, feats that encompass combat, magic, skill, setting fluff, all in the same resource bucket.

Dont get me wrong, I love PF1 its still my favorite fantasy RPG, but its terribly unnecessarily complicated. PF2 was designed to rein that in as much as possible, which it does.

 

[Tigris]

I don't have enough expertise/experience on the topic to have an opinion worth sharing; PF2 seems more complicated to me, quite possibly because I'm already intimately familiar with PF1 and the PF2 rulebooks are just... impenetrable to me.

Thank you for this. I've got a full playset of PF2, and a handful of the setting books, and I'd really like to make better use of them.

I have the same experience, PF2 rulebooks are really a huge pain, I find PF1 to be less extreme in this sense.

I think its more that people who are familiar with PF2, and its huge vocabulary and with it the huge mental load, underestimate how this is for someone who does not know all these keywords etc.

Just look at how much easier the fighter is to understand in PF1: Fighter – d20PFSRD

vs PF2: Fighter - Classes - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

 

[payn]

I have the same experience, PF2 rulebooks are really a huge pain, I find PF1 to be less extreme in this sense.

I think its more that people who are familiar with PF2, and its huge vocabulary and with it the huge mental load, underestimate how this is for someone who does not know all these keywords etc.

Just look at how much easier the fighter is to understand in PF1: Fighter – d20PFSRD

vs PF2: Fighter - Classes - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

Could be relative. It took me a very long time to grok 3E and later PF1. All those years of experience have paid off in my being proficient in running/playing it. Perhaps that exercise has taught me to roll into PF2 more easily and understand how it works. I definitely think if I started with 5E id probably never play something like 3E when it comes to complexity. So, for first timers perhaps the perspective is different. However, I see you discuss 4E a lot so I cant imagine its your first or second rodeo either. Im a little surprised how complicated you find PF2.

 

[Tigris]

Well, if we are sliding the goal post to level 1-7... Right from the get go you have move action, standard action, free action, swift action, attack of opportunity action, actions im probably forgetting about actions in PF1... You have class, multi-class, archetypes, feats that encompass combat, magic, skill, setting fluff, all in the same resource bucket.

Dont get me wrong, I love PF1 its still my favorite fantasy RPG, but its terribly unnecessarily complicated. PF2 was designed to rein that in as much as possible, which it does.

And in PF2 you have

Free action, reaction, 1 action action (with symbol), 2 action action (with symbol), 3 action action (with symbol), you have class feats, general feats, racial feats, skill feats, all from different buckets at different levels.

Personally, I've never watched videos about P2, nor had it explained by anyone. I've been the persona explaining it to my group. I got the basic rules in a few hours, and read more deeply because I enjoy reading rpgs, even those I haven't played yet. P1 took me several weeks to understand. One thing to note though, P1 was my first ttrpg, and I got into it as a teenager. It's possible that I'm baised and the difference is that I'm smarter now, and not that P2 is necessarily simpler now. That's why I created the poll, to see what others think.

Keywords and traits seem to be a big complaint for lots of people, but I never really saw the difficulty in hovering the mouse over something to see if it mattered. A crazy theory: maybe there's a difference between reading physical books and using Archives of Nethys. When traits are all hyperlinked, and you can see a preview on mouse hover, they're a lot more manageable.

To those who complain about traits: Do you primarily read paper books, or browse websites?

I read only digitally I find archives of nethys absolutly horrible to read. The PF2 SRD is a lot better but not up to date. And reading Archives on a mobile phone the hower over on the nethys website is also insufferable.

I also just do not like having to learn (or look up all the time) a huge vocabulary of words, because this is just increasing the cognitive load a lot (that is proven).

Also people dont get smarter, they increase their preknowledge. Intelligence suffers immensly with age, having knowledge from similar fields (like other RPGs) does help immensly.

Thats why reading the first RPG is way harder than reading the 10th.

So, for first timers perhaps the perspective is different. However, I see you discuss 4E a lot so I cant imagine its your first or second rodeo either. Im a little surprised how complicated you find PF2.

Well thing is that I did study didactics. And do know how learning works (preknowledge, cognitive load etc.), so I do know how much easier newer games should be to learn. Its not that it is impossible to learn PF2 for me, but it takes way way too much effort, given that I know 20+ rpgs and 300+ boardgames.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Well, if we are sliding the goal post to level 1-7... Right from the get go you have move action, standard action, free action, swift action, attack of opportunity action, actions im probably forgetting about actions in PF1... You have class, multi-class, archetypes, feats that encompass combat, magic, skill, setting fluff, all in the same resource bucket.

Dont get me wrong, I love PF1 its still my favorite fantasy RPG, but its terribly unnecessarily complicated. PF2 was designed to rein that in as much as possible, which it does.

As some examples of early game complexity. How do you draw a weapon or potion?

In PF1: you can draw a weapon as a move action, which means you can't move during your turn. But, if you have a BAB of +1 (like a level 1 fighter), you can draw a weapon as a free action during a move action in which you make regular movement. Drawing any item other than a weapon always takes a move action. Drinking a potion is a standard action.

In PF2: drawing a weapon requires 1 Interact action. Drawing a potion is 1 Interact action, drinking a potion is one Interact action.

How do you avoid opportunity attacks?

In PF1: You can make a 5 foot step instead of using a move action to move, and avoid opportunity attacks. This is not a swift or a free action, its a special thing you can do. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

In PF2: You can Step to avoid opportunity attacks. Stepping takes one action and moves you 5 feet.

What triggers an opportunity attack?

In PF1: All creatures have opportunity attacks. You trigger an opportunity attack whenever you move out of someone's reach or take a provoking action. Consult this list when you take an action (or memorize it) to see if you provoke: Roll20 - Compendium and Rule Set Directory

In PF2: Fighters and some monsters have opportunity attacks. You trigger an opportunity attack when using a manipulate action or a move action, making a ranged attack, or leaving a square during a move action when within a creature's reach.

 

[Zardnaar]

How many hours have you spent reading PF2 rules to get it? Not having it explained to you by someone, reading it yourself? Because PF2 has a way bigger complexity to read rules because all keywords etc. than if someone explains it and leaves all the (for the moment) unnecessary things away.


PF1 requires less keywords, less initial choices and way less system mastery to make a level 1 party work (with the normal rules, not a beginner adventure, not having someone explain it to you).


PF2 is literally unplayable if players dont know that they need to get "free" out of combat heal because the game is balanced around starting each fight with full HP but requires players to have enough system mastery to get enough free healing to do it.


PF2 works because it has a target audience who loves to watch guides and spend a lot of time doing systemmastery. So you have if you dont start a new group, also most of the time several players who spent 10s maybe 100s of hours reading about PF2 and thus being able to explain things on the level you need (leaving away the 30 conditions you dont need etc.)


I can see that after some levels players struggle less, because in PF2 choices rarely matter, if you have enough free healing, because the differences in powerlevel is soo small that yes its easier to levelup etc. because no matter what you do the difference in strength is in a really small margin, so you dont need to help the players because they cant make much wrong.


Also while both PF1 and PF2 have huge modifiers, but PF1 allows them (with a good GM) to often not care about them. If its clear from a low or high dice roll that you hit anyway or miss anyway, you dont have to add dice roll and modifiers together. The PF2 crit mechanic makes this simplification pretty much impossible. Also PF1 starts with 1 attack, while PF2 has multiattack with different attack modifiers from level 1, making combat already more complex. There is a reason why most people play PF2 with digital tools.


I am not completly sure that PF2 is really more complex than PF1, but if we calculate the complexit per depth, then PF2 is way way higher.


PF1 has a lot of complexity because it has a lot of depth. PF2 has a high complexity because it wants to give the impression of a high depth, thats why for me PF2 feels worse when it comes to complexity.


I did read both PF1 and PF2 from scratch without anyone explaining it to me (PF1 first). PF2 is way worse to understand, but I am sure I would have an easier time explaining PF2 to players than PF1. (Because it can be soo much simplified).


So I rate the complexity of me understanding it from reading the rules, because thats how the game presents itself.

This. I didnt get Pathfinder 2 and it didn't interest me.

PF1 you kinda went 4.0 to 3.5 to PF1. Being familiar helps alot.

Late 2E to 3.0 wasnt huge step.
Parachuting from early 2E to PF1 would be equivalent of 5E to PF2.

 

[Tigris]

As some examples of early game complexity. How do you draw a weapon or potion?

In PF1: you can draw a weapon as a move action, which means you can't move during your turn. But, if you have a BAB of +1 (like a level 1 fighter), you can draw a weapon as a free action during a move action in which you make regular movement. Drawing any item other than a weapon always takes a move action. Drinking a potion is a standard action.

In PF2: drawing a weapon requires 1 Interact action. Drawing a potion is 1 Interact action, drinking a potion is one Interact action.

How do you avoid opportunity attacks?

In PF1: You can make a 5 foot step instead of using a move action to move, and avoid opportunity attacks. This is not a swift or a free action, its a special thing you can do. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

In PF2: You can Step to avoid opportunity attacks. Stepping takes one action and moves you 5 feet.

What triggers an opportunity attack?

In PF1: All creatures have opportunity attacks. You trigger an opportunity attack whenever you move out of someone's reach or take a provoking action. Consult this list when you take an action (or memorize it) to see if you provoke: Roll20 - Compendium and Rule Set Directory

In PF2: Fighters and some monsters have opportunity attacks. You trigger an opportunity attack when using a manipulate action or a move action, making a ranged attack, or leaving a square during a move action when within a creature's reach.

In PF1 so normally do not have to think about drawing a weapon because you can just draw it while moving, at least from level 2 (most weapon using classes from level 1) in PF2 this always needs an action and you need to think about it. Being able to just ignore this makes it easier.

In PF1 there is 1 type of general opportunity action, which can be used when enemy moves out of reach, or uses an action which provokes an opportunity attack. Only 2 conditions. The one using the action should know the action and thus does know if it provokes an opportunity attack or not. This is 1 trait. "provokes opportunity action", people doing the actions need to know, especially because this is big and general rule.


In PF2 there are several traits which can trigger an attack of opportunity. (Move action, manipulate action, ranged attack, in addition to movement). Also different classes (and monsters) can have different "opportunity attacks". Some also trigger on concentrate actions, and can even be taken with ranged attacks: Implement's Interruption - Actions - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database This is like 90% opportunity action, but not exactly. So now you must ask the person if an action has a manipulate trait, or in this other case a "concentration" trait, which they might not know, because it never came up.

"This provokes attacks of opportunities" is easier to understand and remember than traits, which by themselves do nothing (and thus you can forget), but may come up when an enemy has a specific ability.

 

[sevenbastard]

I own both PF1 and the PF2 Beginners Box and I felt the PF2 was more complicated.

I cant speak for the full rulebook.

 

[stonehead]

In PF1 so normally do not have to think about drawing a weapon because you can just draw it while moving, at least from level 2 (most weapon using classes from level 1) in PF2 this always needs an action and you need to think about it. Being able to just ignore this makes it easier.

A rule you can sometimes ignore is a good example of early game complexity though, which is all @SpellObjectEnthusiast was saying.

In PF1 there is 1 type of general opportunity action, which can be used when enemy moves out of reach, or uses an action which provokes an opportunity attack. Only 2 conditions. The one using the action should know the action and thus does know if it provokes an opportunity attack or not. This is 1 trait. "provokes opportunity action", people doing the actions need to know, especially because this is big and general rule.


In PF2 there are several traits which can trigger an attack of opportunity. (Move action, manipulate action, ranged attack, in addition to movement). Also different classes (and monsters) can have different "opportunity attacks". Some also trigger on concentrate actions, and can even be taken with ranged attacks: Implement's Interruption - Actions - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database This is like 90% opportunity action, but not exactly. So now you must ask the person if an action has a manipulate trait, or in this other case a "concentration" trait, which they might not know, because it never came up.

"This provokes attacks of opportunities" is easier to understand and remember than traits, which by themselves do nothing (and thus you can forget), but may come up when an enemy has a specific ability.

Pathfinder 1 also has numerous options that change what does and does not trigger an attack of opportunity.

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Either way, trying to convince someone what they find hard to learn doesn't seem like a very fruitful discussion. My players found 2E easier to learn, and no amount of internet arguing will convince me that no actually they didn't. Similarly, I can accept that different people are different, and P2E is actually hard to learn for certain types of people.

Edit: This got me thinking how interesting it would be to try to scientifically compare the two. Get some new players who have no experience with 3e, 3.5, P1, or P2, show them Archives of Nethys and d20pfsrd with no other videos or instructions, and see which takes them longer to build a character in. Maybe even run a combat, and count how long the turns take or something.
Way more effort than I'm ever going to put into it, but it's kinda fun to think about.

 

[Incenjucar]

I played and ran 2E, 3.XE, and especially 4E, read but didn't play PF1, had a ~6 year long gap between playing RPGs, studied up on 5E24 during the playtests, and found PF2R effortless to pick up once the fiasco hit.

It's a standard d20 system with balance so while it's more complex than 4E you can always just slap down a target DC and move forward.