Pathfinder 2E I played my first PF2e game this week. Here's why I'm less inclined to play again.

[zakael19]

Lot of tags, but basically obvious.

I want to note how hilarious this is because most of these tags do not, actually, mean obvious things in the standard word sense or in the “carried from D&D” sense.

Like, Gestural would be obvious for what you said Manipulate means here. I still have no idea what your Incapacitate tags means with how you defined it.

Much like Draw Steel! (Which does some weird stuff with how it terms out areas and shapes especially that are unintuitive and just sound bad), this feels more like a case of “referential” design as opposed to intuitive.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I want to note how hilarious this is because most of these tags do not, actually, mean obvious things in the standard word sense or in the “carried from D&D” sense.

They absolutely do? Like, "Subtle", "Mental", "Emotion", and yes, "Manipulate" all do or involve what they say on the tin. But more than that, it's not that the tags make it immediately identifiable to someone who doesn't know the rules, but allows someone who has a passing knowledge of them to immediately identify the common rules riders instead of having to read two paragraphs of text on every bespoke spell effect.

Like, Gestural would be obvious for what you said Manipulate means here.

"Manipulate" doesn't just mean "Gestural", it means you are doing things with your hands. That can be anything from opening a door, pressing a button, or casting a spell. I'd say it's very obvious.

I still have no idea what your Incapacitate tags means with how you defined it.

That's because it was a brief explanation, not the full rules? If you want, I can give it to you, but the basic idea is this:

Incapacitate spells are generally spells with harsh effects, and thus they've limited their effectiveness against creatures that are higher CR than the spell itself i.e. their CR is higher than the twice the spell slot of the spell cast. If their CR is higher, then their save is counted as being one step up from what it was (Failure becomes success, success becomes critical success), thus making it harder to nuke bosses with simple spells with low rank spell slots.

Much like Draw Steel! (Which does some weird stuff with how it terms out areas and shapes especially that are unintuitive and just sound bad), this feels more like a case of “referential” design as opposed to intuitive.

I mean, it's "referential" in that tagging is an indexing technique: it's a flag to say "This rule applies" without having to rewrite the rule over and over, in the same way that you can see the rules say a "Basic" save, which has specific implications for effects across the CF/F/S/CS save spectrum (No Damage/Half Damage/Full Damage/Double Damage). Compared to something like 5E, where every spell is basically treated as a unique entity, it's really helpful.

 

[zakael19]

They absolutely do? Like, "Subtle", "Mental", "Emotion", and yes, "Manipulate" all do or involve what they say on the tin. But more than that, it's not that the tags make it immediately identifiable to someone who doesn't know the rules, but allows someone who has a passing knowledge of them to immediately identify the common rules riders instead of having to read two paragraphs of text on every bespoke spell effect.



"Manipulate" doesn't just mean "Gestural", it means you are doing things with your hands. That can be anything from opening a door, pressing a button, or casting a spell. I'd say it's very obvious.



That's because it was a brief explanation, not the full rules? If you want, I can give it to you, but the basic idea is this:

Incapacitate spells are generally spells with harsh effects, and thus they've limited their effectiveness against creatures that are higher CR than the spell itself i.e. their CR is higher than the twice the spell slot of the spell cast. If their CR is higher, then their save is counted as being one step up from what it was (Failure becomes success, success becomes critical success), thus making it harder to nuke bosses with simple spells with low rank spell slots.



I mean, it's "referential" in that tagging is an indexing technique: it's a flag to say "This rule applies" without having to rewrite the rule over and over, in the same way that you can see the rules say a "Basic" save, which has specific implications for effects across the CF/F/S/CS save spectrum (No Damage/Half Damage/Full Damage/Double Damage). Compared to something like 5E, where every spell is basically treated as a unique entity, it's really helpful.

Right, this is the response of somebody who likes and gets the design ethos.

But you have to have a broad understanding of the design space of PF2’s unique choices to make them be “obvious;” and it’s rooted in a deliberate design choice to be complex for its own sake to make people who enjoy a high degree of system mastery and a certain style of very idiosyncratic decision making happy.

I'm assuming a core conceit of PF2 is avoiding exception based / ability distinct design? So you've got a much higher up-front cognitive cost, but you don't have to worry about unique monsters or abilities have their own sub-rules?

Eg: from Draw Steel! (another tactical game which has a fair bit of complexity but streamlines the core tags quite a bit), some ability unique text (nothing else in the game turns you green) but core Attribute & "edge" Effects.

Turn Green 2d10 + 3 Villain Action 1
Area, Magic
(measure icon) 3 burst (target icon) Each enemy in the area
{<11 P<1 the target turns green (save ends)
12-16 P<2 the target turns green (save ends)
17+} P<3 the target turns green until the end of the encounter

Effect: Green shadows crawl out from under the bredbeddle’s feet and turn each target green. The bredbeddle has a double edge on power rolls against any target turned green this way.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Right, this is the response of somebody who likes and gets the design ethos.

No, I'm just willing to engage with the design ethos. Like, tags aren't meant to explain something; they are "tags" because they are quick rules references for GMs. For the most part they mean what they say, and if you have a passing familiarity with the rules, they make it easy to understand what common rules it does or doesn't follow before you read the spell block.

Like, any player who has a passing familiarity with PF2 is going to know that any Incapacitation spell is going to have limited use on boss monsters before even reading what the spell does because the rule is called out immediately. Again, it's an organizational aid, not an explainer.

But you have to have a broad understanding of the design space of PF2’s unique choices to make them be “obvious;” and it’s rooted in a deliberate design choice to be complex for its own sake to make people who enjoy a high degree of system mastery and a certain style of very idiosyncratic decision making happy.

Is it even a unique choice? Bunches of games use tags. Calling it "idiosyncratic" is feels like a reach.

I'm assuming a core conceit of PF2 is avoiding exception based / ability distinct design? So you've got a much higher up-front cognitive cost, but you don't have to worry about unique monsters or abilities have their own sub-rules?

Generally? The tags reference a lot of specific rules and conditions, and while you can have individualized attacks, the tags make it so you can easily take care of edge cases. Let me use this one as an example:

So this is from the off-brand Aboleth stat block: an attack with a "unique" rider. So the attack has "Agile", which means that instead of having a -5/-10 for second and third attacks, it's -4/-8. Basically, the attack is closer to a light weapon. "Magical" means it's, well, magical. And "Reach 20" is also pretty obvious.

The second part is where the tags are particularly useful. "Curse" means that it can only be removed by techniques or spells that target curses, which is incredibly useful because you can have a bunch of different sorts of attacks and long-term effects and I can immediately say "Yes, Cleanse Affliction will/will not work on this". "Occult" means it's using Occult magic power to do it. And "Manipulate" tells me you need the hand to do it, which is obvious but who knows what some enterprising rules lawyer might try to say.

Similarly, the effects are mostly standardized conditions: Clumsy is basically a -1 per level to Dexterity, Enfeebled is a -1 per level to Strength. -10 to speed is fairly obvious, but I will say it's not completely standardized.

Eg: from Draw Steel! (another tactical game which has a fair bit of complexity but streamlines the core tags quite a bit), some ability unique text (nothing else in the game turns you green) but core Attribute & "edge" Effects.

Turn Green 2d10 + 3 Villain Action 1
Area, Magic
(measure icon) 3 burst (target icon) Each enemy in the area
{<11 P<1 the target turns green (save ends)
12-16 P<2 the target turns green (save ends)
17+} P<3 the target turns green until the end of the encounter

Effect: Green shadows crawl out from under the bredbeddle’s feet and turn each target green. The bredbeddle has a double edge on power rolls against any target turned green this way.

Having read Draw Steel I actually know what is going on here (lol). But that's part of the thing: the rules shorthand it because its assumed you read through the section which explains it. For example, I know what they mean by the P (Presence) and that if you are below that number, the extra effect applies. If you are vaguely familiar with the system (And I am quite vague with the system), you can still glean a bunch of knowledge from just the basics.

Edit: Whoops, I brushed through the Effect sentence and didn't notice Double Edge, but that just means any roll basically goes up one level, so an <11 roll becomes a 12-16 and so on. A regular edge is just... a +2, if I remember correctly? But I might not.

4E was the same way, where I kind of brushed off it because it wasn't written the way I was used to... but that was on me for not engaging with the design because it was unfamiliar to me. Once you have the bare basics, a lot of the powers and monsters suddenly make sense. Same with a game like PF2: it doesn't take much to really understand those tags, but it does take something.