Pathfinder 2E I played my first PF2e game this week. Here's why I'm less inclined to play again.

[Thomas Shey]

5.5 has Hero Points?

I think you've gotten confused what thread this is, Micah.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think you've gotten confused what thread this is, Micah.

I didn't know know PF2 had Hero Points either. Has it taken PF in a more narrative direction than the original? I thought PF2's issue for me was the IMO excessive reliance on mechanics over fiction.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I didn't know know PF2 had Hero Points either. Has it taken PF in a more narrative direction than the original? I thought PF2's issue for me was the IMO excessive reliance on mechanics over fiction.

They're not very thoroughly integrated; all they do is buy you a reroll. You also don't get a lot of them (1-3 by GM choice). I think its fair to say that from your perspective you'd consider the system excessively game oriented, not excessively narrative oriented.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They're not very thoroughly integrated; all they do is buy you a reroll. You also don't get a lot of them (1-3 by GM choice). I think its fair to say that from your perspective you'd consider the system excessively game oriented, not excessively narrative oriented.

Cool. That's what I thought, and why I bounced off it hard when I played it last year.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Cool. That's what I thought, and why I bounced off it hard when I played it last year.

Honestly, the use of Hero Points in my experience is more of a "I really don't want to fumble this save I think" or "This seems like a bad time to miss" than anything else. Its putting its thumb in a minor way on the fact that D20's are so swingy, and the impact that can have on the way PF2e handles fumble/miss/hit/crit.

 

[Incenjucar]

Pathfinder Society play has quite a bit centered on hero points, with various boon effects based on your faction.

Pathfinder actually has a lot of systems that try to create narrative that's not possible using combat rules, with varying effectiveness of implementation.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I don't disagree with the third, but I'm not even sure what the first two mean, let alone whether they're critical to the function of the game.

When a character is downed, their initiative is changed to immediately after the character that downed them. This ensures that the party has a full round to intervene to save them. Forgetting this rule increases the lethality of the game.

The second issue is more niche, but there are quite a few feats that can be invalidated if the DM essentially ignores the rules associated with them. Feats modifying the « Make an Impression » action is an easy example, since there are a lot of feats that interact with it but every DM I’ve played with just ignores the action.

Recall Knowledge would also be a good candidate for this.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Honestly, the use of Hero Points in my experience is more of a "I really don't want to fumble this save I think" or "This seems like a bad time to miss" than anything else. Its putting its thumb in a minor way on the fact that D20's are so swingy, and the impact that can have on the way PF2e handles fumble/miss/hit/crit.

You can also use them as a heroic second wind when you are downed, so if the GM only grants them sparingly, it could kill your character.

 

[Thomas Shey]

When a character is downed, their initiative is changed to immediately after the character that downed them. This ensures that the party has a full round to intervene to save them. Forgetting this rule increases the lethality of the game.

I will now acknowledge I had no idea this was a rule in PF2e. I do have to note I've never seen a situation where it would have mattered, but I will accept that it can.

The second issue is more niche, but there are quite a few feats that can be invalidated if the DM essentially ignores the rules associated with them. Feats modifying the « Make an Impression » action is an easy example, since there are a lot of feats that interact with it but every DM I’ve played with just ignores the action.

Okay, that at least makes sense now. I can't say I've seen "Make an Impression" come up all that often, but that could just be an artifact of the particular games I've been in.

Recall Knowledge would also be a good candidate for this.

That on the other hand I've seen come up all the time, so the issue is clearer.

That all said, I'm not sure "The GM is ignoring parts of the system could cause serious problems" is particularly limited to PF2e.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You can also use them as a heroic second wind when you are downed, so if the GM only grants them sparingly, it could kill your character.

I think I've seen that come up once in three campaigns (two of them long), so perhaps you'll at least understand why that doesn't strike me as typically that significant. And I don't think this is a sign I've been playing in unusually easy campaigns given one of those was Age of Ashes.