D&D 5E How valuable is the shield?

Yup. ONLY at third level (until level 8). I skimmed through that. My bad.

Yep. FYI, in recent printings of the PHB, it's errata'ed to be flexible after 3rd level:

http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata.pdf said:
Fighter
Feinting Attack (p. 74). The advantage
is lost if not used on the turn you gain it.
Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher
(p. 75). The final sentence ends as follows:
“… unless you’re replacing the spell you
gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from
any school of magic” (6th printing).

Most of your tactical analysis is bad and your argument is still riddled with errors. E.g. the claim that "such a PC [Mobile Sharpshooter] is so focused on defense and survival that he is subpar in combat to most other builds" is laughable. Nope. He hardly gave up anything to get his versatile defensive capabilities: one feat (Mobile), one free spell pick (Expeditious Retreat), one regular spell pick (Shield, which is ubiquitous among EKs), and three skills (Athletics, Stealth, Perception) which have both offensive and defensive uses--and you claim that a Valor Bard is going to do comparable damage? (News flash: Valor Bards at 5th level don't even have Extra Attack, nor a fighting style, nor Sharpshooter. Against a high-AC foe like the AC 17 githyanki, you're doing only 42% of the fighter's damage even if you have Str 16 and a greatsword. Against a low-AC foe like an AC 13 Hill Giant, you're doing even less, 37%. Not remotely comparable.)

Playing defense as an integrated party typically works a little bit differently than playing defense solo: it involves things like crowd control, Wall of Force on the biggest bad guy, Web spells to give enemies disadvantage and make kiting easier, and tanky PCs grappling/proning enemies. The implementation changes but the point does not: you still tend to wind up doing better with versatility (good offense and excellent defense) than you do going all-in on offense.

Not that defense is a trump card. Again, sometimes, despite defense being generally cheaper and more efficient than offense, some other tactic like healing or sneaking is even more efficient.

But offensive specialization, especially DPR specialization, past a certain point is really expensive in 5E and not usually worth it.
 
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Look, [MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION], I'm not just pointing out your rules errors to be a jerk. Your argument is apparently that defensive investments cost too much to be worthwhile because it sucks the wind out of your offense and leaves you unable to contribute to a party.

That's a rules claim. In a system where your assumption were true, your conclusion (offense trumps defense) would be true also. I think it's probably true in AD&D, for example. In 5E, it isn't.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Most of your tactical analysis is bad and your argument is still riddled with errors. E.g. the claim that "such a PC [Mobile Sharpshooter] is so focused on defense and survival that he is subpar in combat to most other builds" is laughable. Nope. He hardly gave up anything to get his versatile defensive capabilities: one feat (Mobile), one free spell pick (Expeditious Retreat), one regular spell pick (Shield, which is ubiquitous among EKs), and three skills (Athletics, Stealth, Perception) which have both offensive and defensive uses--and you claim that a Valor Bard is going to do comparable damage? (News flash: Valor Bards at 5th level don't even have Extra Attack, nor a fighting style, nor Sharpshooter. Against a high-AC foe like the AC 17 githyanki, you're doing only 42% of the fighter's damage even if you have Str 16 and a greatsword. Against a low-AC foe like an AC 13 Hill Giant, you're doing even less, 37%. Not remotely comparable.)

Playing defense as an integrated party typically works a little bit differently than playing defense solo: it involves things like crowd control, Wall of Force on the biggest bad guy, Web spells to give enemies disadvantage and make kiting easier, and tanky PCs grappling/proning enemies. The implementation changes but the point does not: you still tend to wind up doing better with versatility (good offense and excellent defense) than you do going all-in on offense.

Not that defense is a trump card. Again, sometimes, despite defense being generally cheaper and more efficient than offense, some other tactic like healing or sneaking is even more efficient.

Yeah, you can make the claims that my analysis is bad, but they doesn't make it true. As for errors, I do that all of the time. I'm old and make mistakes. Deal with it. It doesn't mean your opinion is correct, it just means that I'm old and make mistakes.


As an example, your entire Githyanki example is kind of laughable. Seriously. You picked foes who did not have ranged attacks, just so that your mobile build get easily get away. What a terrible one sided example. A Young Dragon could easily defeat your EK solo build at a much lower CR as long as the encounter does not start at hundreds of feet apart. Ditto for a Frost Giant, even with disadvantage later in the encounter at range.

And yes, your EK build is gimped a little bit as a fighter. You did not declare that he would be taking the Archery fighting style (and your PC's DPR drops by 3.5 points if he doesn't take that style), but that is a fairly typical assumption with such a PC. So assuming a 16 Dex, here is how your PC compares DPR to other normal fighter builds against AC 16 at level 5:

EK Sharp: 14.45 (i.e. -5/+10 which does the best DPR)
EK Melee: 8.7 (rapier)

18 Str Duel: 13.25 +2 AC
18 Str GWF: 15.63
16 Str GWM: 13.97 (normal, not including extra attack due to killing a foe which is impossible to figure out, but if it were 1 attack in 6, DPR would climb another 1.1 points)
16 Str GWM: 14.3 (-5/+10, not including extra attack due to killing a foe which is impossible to figure out, but if it were 1 attack in 6, DPR would climb another 1.1 points)
16 Dex Ranger Sharp: 19.63

So compared to the Ranger Sharpshooter, the EK Sharpshoot is giving up over 5 DPR. Your PC is not a striker, he's a defender that doesn't typically defend.

So you are correct. On the surface, your PC does about the same damage as other fighter PCs assuming that your PC is not in melee. The other fighter builds tend to have 1 (or 3) better AC (heavy armor instead of medium) than the EK build and any of these PCs could be an EK with all of the other advantages that gives (like a Shield spell 3 times a day or Expeditious Retreat). Granted, these PCs are somewhat lousy at ranged attacks, but them having to do ranged attacks would seem to be a lot less frequent than your PC having to do melee attacks (shy of your PC totally kiting from the next room over or some such most of the time).

The issue is that you only (for the most part) do damage and kit. You do not soak up melee attacks like other Fighters, so those attacks (and other shorter range ranged attacks/spells) get spread out over the rest of the party. If you do decide to attack in melee and soak up attacks, your damage goes down the toilet compared to other fighters (alternatively, you could use the Help action to give them advantage, but even that is probably subpar). And if you are kiting far back to the point that monsters rarely attack you due to range, then if you do get attacked, other PCs cannot reach you in time to help. Your PC can sometimes help other PCs (e.g. pour a potion down their throat, etc.) due to your mobility, but not maybe so often the other way around.

Finally, I prefer a Battle Master to a EK since I think that they are much more effective, especially at lower to mid levels. But, that is subjective.

So yeah, I claim that this is a meh PC. Not good. Not bad. Just not a team oriented PC. A fighter who does similar damage, but does not himself often take damage. Kind of like a selfish PC. I understand this type of design built in preferable behavior for a Mage or Bard, but not a Fighter. JMO.


And yeah, I suspect that less than 1% of all players play solo games. It might be slightly higher than this, but who cares? The game is made to be played by a group of players, not just one player and the DM. So analysis leaning towards solo PCs tends to be less than useful for the vast majority of D&D players.

But offensive specialization, especially DPR specialization, past a certain point is really expensive in 5E and not usually worth it.

I agree with this. I just don't agree that such specialization stops at level 5. For me, it is closer to level 12 or even higher.
 

Yeah, you can make the claims that my analysis is bad, but they doesn't make it true. As for errors, I do that all of the time. I'm old and make mistakes. Deal with it. It doesn't mean your opinion is correct, it just means that I'm old and make mistakes.

As an example, your entire Githyanki example is kind of laughable. Seriously. You picked foes who did not have ranged attacks, just so that your mobile build get easily get away. What a terrible one sided example. A Young Dragon could easily defeat your EK solo build at a much lower CR as long as the encounter does not start at hundreds of feet apart. Ditto for a Frost Giant, even with disadvantage later in the encounter at range.

Dude. I picked foes who get Misty Step as a bonus action. (And I picked them because I happen to find them cool, and because it's a realistic challenge that I would actually give to a PC and which would be interestingly difficult for both sides.) If I were trying for a one-sided example I would have picked Slaads or Chuuls or dinosaurs or something, and then the offensive-focused PC would just lose even harder. But that's the kind of one-sided fight that isn't even worth playing out at the table, so I'm not going to use it as an example.

First you write:

But you are totally missing the point. It's not that you cannot create a PC that might be able to survive in such a situation, it's that such a PC is so focused on defense and survival that he is subpar in combat to most other builds... Other PCs that hang back like Mages and Lore Bards and such do control, or more damage, or bring in pets, or something. They shift action economy. This guy just shoots a bow and might manage 15 or so points of damage (2 normal hits or 1 -5/+10) in a given round. The GMW Fighter typically manages more than that as does the Sharpshooter Ranger (typically 5 to 7 more points of damage). This guy is not really that impressive from a party perspective giving that he has two feats.


Even a Valor Bard could do nearly as much damage per round

Then you try to support that with:


And yes, your EK build is gimped a little bit as a fighter. You did not declare that he would be taking the Archery fighting style (and your PC's DPR drops by 3.5 points if he doesn't take that style), but that is a fairly typical assumption with such a PC. So assuming a 16 Dex, here is how your PC compares DPR to other normal fighter builds against AC 16 at level 5:


EK Sharp: 14.45 (i.e. -5/+10 which does the best DPR)
EK Melee: 8.7 (rapier)


18 Str Duel: 13.25 +2 AC
18 Str GWF: 15.63
16 Str GWM: 13.97 (normal, not including extra attack due to killing a foe which is impossible to figure out, but if it were 1 attack in 6, DPR would climb another 1.1 points)
16 Str GWM: 14.3 (-5/+10, not including extra attack due to killing a foe which is impossible to figure out, but if it were 1 attack in 6, DPR would climb another 1.1 points)
16 Dex Ranger Sharp: 19.63


So compared to the Ranger Sharpshooter, the EK Sharpshoot is giving up over 5 DPR. Your PC is not a striker, he's a defender that doesn't typically defend.

Are you even listening to yourself? First you claim that the EK Sharpshooter is "subpar compared to most other builds," comparable to Valor Bards(!). Then you try to back that up by naming... a bunch of fighters with comparable or worse damage (3 worse, 1 slightly better), and a Ranger. So in the end, you back up a claim about "most other builds" with a bunch of highly-specialized builds, only one of which even succeeds at making the EK look "subpar." (And the poor Ranger can't maintain his relative superiority, unfortunately--for Ranger, level 5 is as good as it ever gets.)

All you're doing here is proving my point and showing conclusively why a purely offensive focus doesn't pay dividends.

I agree with this. I just don't agree that such specialization stops at level 5. For me, it is closer to level 12 or even higher.

What a coincidence! I didn't claim that it stops at level 5, and you don't agree (with whom?) that it stops at level 5. Wow, what are the odds of both of those things being true simultaneously?

Yet again you're attacking a fabrication made out of your own misapprehensions and false assumptions.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
If anything is more clear than anything else in this thread, it's that people will come up with an example that a group might find in play to say, "See! My argument is totally the best because of this example.", and another person will come up with an example a group might find in play and say, "No, my argument is the best because of this example!"

That's the thing with a game like D&D with a near infinite amount of scenarios: we can all come up with one to support our argument. That tells me no one is right, and no one is wrong, and everyone is right. And conflicting positions also tells me that the game is pretty good if each position can be "right" depending on how you play.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
I think if you want to build an AC tank, the shield is a big part of that. If your AC is 16+, a shield gives a lot of damage mitigation.

If you want to build a DPR focused character, great weapons or ranged weapons are the way to go, and a shield will interfere with that.

You can do a little from column A and a little from Column B - shield with one-handed weapon and dueling style and/or spells. You won't be top in either area, but you can be pretty good in both.

Shields (i.e. AC builds) are good. DPR is good. Pick whichever one is more fun for you personally.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I think if you want to build an AC tank, the shield is a big part of that. If your AC is 16+, a shield gives a lot of damage mitigation.

If you want to build a DPR focused character, great weapons or ranged weapons are the way to go, and a shield will interfere with that.

You can do a little from column A and a little from Column B - shield with one-handed weapon and dueling style and/or spells. You won't be top in either area, but you can be pretty good in both.

Shields (i.e. AC builds) are good. DPR is good. Pick whichever one is more fun for you personally.

Yeah, and it's also worth noting that soooo many other factors can come into play. For example, maybe the role in the group is to be a tank, so damage mitigation is the way to go and pumping out damage isn't really important if it ends up with your glass canon's getting waxed early. On paper, alone in a vacuum, maybe your PC isn't totally optimized as a damage dealer would be, but in actual play, doing that would be far less effective in the group dynamic and how the game unfolds.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Are you even listening to yourself? First you claim that the EK Sharpshooter is "subpar compared to most other builds," comparable to Valor Bards(!). Then you try to back that up by naming... a bunch of fighters with comparable or worse damage (3 worse, 1 slightly better), and a Ranger. So in the end, you back up a claim about "most other builds" with a bunch of highly-specialized builds, only one of which even succeeds at making the EK look "subpar." (And the poor Ranger can't maintain his relative superiority, unfortunately--for Ranger, level 5 is as good as it ever gets.)

Note: I put in the explanation that killing a foe adds about 1.1 extra damage if 1 in 6 attacks drop a foe. If 1 in 3, it would be about 2.2 extra damage for GWM. So in actual game play, all of those builds have higher DPR except the Duel PC and that guy has 3 AC higher for -1.2 DPR. Based on your earlier arguments about disadvantage, 3 difference in AC is easily better than a 9% increase in DPR if +2 AC is.

Also, there were only 3 builds plus the Ranger there, not 4. The GWM build was listed twice, once for not using -5/+10 and one doing so. See? We all make mistakes. :cool:


I also claimed that your PC was ok (at least twice). Not good compared to other fighters, not bad. Ok. What is subpar is his ability to perform as a fighter since he sucks in melee compared to these other builds.

He's not a striker (like the Ranger Archer Sharpshooter), he's not a defender (like the other Fighter builds). He's just not as party friendly as many other builds. And that's ok, but your Gith example made him out to be this big monster killer due to defense and he really isn't. He has great mobility, so he can kite, but meh. That's not how most people play D&D because most people have a 4+ group of players that tend to get into combat together.

He can kill monsters more easily from long range, but that might be 5% of all encounters. He also has greater personal survivability in some circumstances (which you call defense).


As for Ranger, we were discussing level 5. If you want to change the subject, fine. But don't imply that I am indicating that Rangers are better than Fighters at all levels. That is your spin on what I indicated.

There is no doubt that a Fighter should be offensively more capable at higher levels than a Ranger. But, 14th level Vanish gives a Ranger archer advantage on their first attack in many rounds in many circumstances (plus Dex 20 by then gives more DPR, but the Fighter gets this as well). 17th level and Swift Quiver (-Hunter's Mark) also increases their offensive capability, at least for one encounter per day. There is no doubt that the Fighter takes the lead from levels 11 on, but that's less than half of all levels and at levels 14 and 17, the Ranger is not far behind (although the Fighter does get more ASIs, some of them cannot be used for offense; and there might be some good wizard spells for him). The Ranger is still typically a lot more versatile. Pros and Cons.

I just threw Ranger in there to illustrate that the EK Fighter at level 5 wasn't a particularly great striker, although you implied he was with your Gith example. Not all DMs allow kiting in every encounter.
 

How long can the CAS guy, complete with team "positions" (striker, defender, etc.) and efficiency stats, and the CAW guy who literally spends untold hours running combat scenario simulations against himself, talk past each other?

My solution: The CAS guy should borrow from sabermetrics and come up with a "WAR" stat. The CAW guy will at least like the acronym.
 


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