What happens when a wizard shares Alter Self with his familiar? If my PC turns into a troglodyte, does his weasel also turn into a trog? A cute mini trog? Naturally, this also applies to Polymorph, where things can get weird. How do you stat-out a familiar sharing a polymorph into a gray render? If the Medium wizard becomes a Large gray render, does the Tiny familiar become a Small gray render?
sharing Alter Self with a familiar
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Thanee
First Post
Well, you can probably just choose a different form for the familiar (because they are magical beasts, they cannot becomes humanoids with the spell), like if you had cast Alter Self twice. The other option is, that it simply doesn't work on the familiar at the same time.
With Polymorph the familiar can become the same forms you do. There is no size restriction as in Alter Self. Even a tiny familiar can technically become a colossal beast that way.
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Thanee
With Polymorph the familiar can become the same forms you do. There is no size restriction as in Alter Self. Even a tiny familiar can technically become a colossal beast that way.
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Thanee
Thanee
First Post
Oh, right. Forgot about that part. My bad. 
And it looks like there is no choice for another form either, as the same spell just affects the familiar, too, just like a multiple target spell.
However, the size issue still remains, which would make Alter Self fail to work on the familiar, but not Polymorph.
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Thanee
And it looks like there is no choice for another form either, as the same spell just affects the familiar, too, just like a multiple target spell.
However, the size issue still remains, which would make Alter Self fail to work on the familiar, but not Polymorph.
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Thanee
I was under the impression (probably mistakenly), that spells with a target of "You" could only be cast on the familiar *instead* of on you, and that sharing (in the strict sense) was restricted to spells that targeted "a creature." Looking at the SRD, my interpretation is certainly not explicitly stated in the RAW.
Nevertheless, I would argue that Alter Self affects the familiar as it would a magical beast, and therefore you would choose an appropriate magical beast as the familiar's new form. Creature's of the familiar's creature type can be affected by Alter Self; it's just that the type affects how the spell works. The rule in question, it appears to me, is directed at spells that are restricted to certain creature types, namely humanoids, such as Enlarge Person and Reduce Person. Alter Self can affect any creature type, as can Polymorph (although the forms you can assume are restricted to certain types).
--Axe
Nevertheless, I would argue that Alter Self affects the familiar as it would a magical beast, and therefore you would choose an appropriate magical beast as the familiar's new form. Creature's of the familiar's creature type can be affected by Alter Self; it's just that the type affects how the spell works. The rule in question, it appears to me, is directed at spells that are restricted to certain creature types, namely humanoids, such as Enlarge Person and Reduce Person. Alter Self can affect any creature type, as can Polymorph (although the forms you can assume are restricted to certain types).
--Axe
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Pickaxe said:
Alter Self is a spell that targets a creature.
Hold Person is a spell that targets a creature. Its target entry is not 'a creature', it's 'one humanoid creature'; non-humanoid creatures are excluded from what it can target; nevertheless, 'one humanoid creature' is 'a creature'.
Hold Monster is a spell that targets a creature. Its target entry is not 'a creature', it's 'one living creature'; non-living creatures are excluded from what it can target; nevertheless, 'one living creature' is 'a creature'.
Alter Self is a spell that targets a creature. Its target entry is not 'a creature', it's 'you'; creatures-that-aren't-you are excluded from what it can target; nevertheless, 'you' is 'a creature'.
Apart from that, I agree with you. You Share the spell 'Alter Self', not 'Alter Self into Troglodyte'. I can Share a Magic Fang with my animal companion, affecting his bite attack and my claw attack. I don't need to Share 'Magic Fang: Bite', just 'Magic Fang'.
I don't see any reason why I couldn't Share a Fire Shield with my toad, giving myself the warm shield and him the chill shield version.
Alter Self can affect a magical beast (so the special provision is unnecessary); it just can't turn him into a troglodyte.
-Hyp.
Last edited:
Thanee
First Post
Pickaxe said:
Yep, but I also think that you can only cast a personal spell on either yourself or the familiar, not both at once.
Since it's the same spell, which also affects the familiar, I would say, that you can only choose the 'variables' once for the spell (just as if it had multiple targets). You choose the creature to Polymorph into (Alter Self cannot be cast on both at once, because it is personal) and both, you and the familiar, turn into a creature of that kind.
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Thanee
Arbiter of Wyrms
First Post
Yeah, I'm definately with Hypersmurf on this one. The familiar can share the spell, but is still restricted to forms of ITS OWN creature type, though I might be lenient, depending on circumstances, and allow forms of the familiar's original, unaugmented type (e.g. animal).
Hypersmurf said:
Agreed. For some reason I thought a distinction was made in share spells between spells that can target any creature and spells that target "You." The rule itself, however, only mentions a spell the cast casts on "himself," which of course would include both categories (or, as Hyp. describes it, a single inclusive category).
As in my first post, I fall into the "separate variables" camp of interpretation. Having said that, how do people handle things like shared cure spells? Separate rolls for caster and familiar/companion, or one roll that applies to each?
--Axe
Arbiter of Wyrms
First Post
I let players choose before they roll. For me, given the choice, I'll roll just the one die.Pickaxe said:
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