sharing Alter Self with a familiar

[Hypersmurf]

The SRD is saying to ignore the type of the familiar (magical beast).

No, it isn't. It's saying that the spell can affect the familiar, even if it normally cannot affect a Magical Beast. Alter Self can affect a Magical Beast. The line is inapplicable.

We have all seen the renditions of wizard and familiar looking like two extensions of the same creature (e.g. the cover of Complete Arcane). When that guy turns into a troglodyte, his cat likely turns into a Tiny troglodyte, or at least a Tiny reptilian version of itself. Or, if we insist on making the spell as legal as possible, then the cat turns into a Small troglodyte (within one size of itself, yet a stubby trog, to keep within Alter Self's limits.

There aren't any Small troglodytes. Can my halfling use Alter Self to turn into a Tiny gnome? Can my human use Alter Self to turn into a Large dwarf?

-Hyp.

 

[Bad Paper]

There aren't any Small troglodytes. Can my halfling use Alter Self to turn into a Tiny gnome? Can my human use Alter Self to turn into a Large dwarf?

Considering the fact that there are Small adult humans in our world (e.g.Mini-V ), I would be willing to allow different-sized creatures under unusual circumstances. But we digress from my original point, which is that a familiar should get the same effect from the same spell that its master gets.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But we digress from my original point, which is that a familiar should get the same effect from the same spell that its master gets.

The 'same effect' is to turn the master into a Medium troglodyte.

Shouldn't the familiar turn into a Medium troglodyte, if he gets 'the same effect'?

What if the wizard is a doppelganger, using Alter Self to become a Large Centaur?

Or if a multiclassed halfling Druid/Wizard shares his Alter-Self-into-Gnome with his Huge Giant Crocodile animal companion?

-Hyp.

 

[Bad Paper]

What if the wizard is a doppelganger, using Alter Self to become a Large Centaur?

Tricky! Its Tiny owl familiar grows hooves and prances about with feathers, wings, and a hairy tail. Undefined: whether it becomes Small.

Or if a multiclassed halfling Druid/Wizard shares his Alter-Self-into-Gnome with his Huge Giant Crocodile animal companion?

<sigh>

Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

I'm talking about familiars. I don't care about druids, and I think their Share Spells ability is silly. I would not allow said Druid/Wizard to share barkskin with his familiar, so I would not allow alter self to share with his animal companion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm talking about familiars. I don't care about druids, and I think their Share Spells ability is silly. I would not allow said Druid/Wizard to share barkskin with his familiar, so I would not allow alter self to share with his animal companion.

I disagree there - I see no problem with a Druid/Wizard sharing Barkskin with his familiar, or even a Wizard sharing a Barkskin from a Ring of Spell Storing or a Limited Wish with his familiar.

Even setting aside the Arcane Hierophant PrC from Races of the Wild.

But apart from that:

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size..."

The natural size of a Centaur is Large, not Tiny or Small.

"... and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings...)"

You specifically inherit the centaur's 'absence of wings'.

"You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind."

'Feathers' are not within the normal range of the hair texture of a centaur. Tiny or Small are not within the norms for a centaur, just as Mini-V is not within the norms for a human.

"You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race."

Whatever you described, it's not an average member of the Centaur race.

-Hyp.

 

[Pickaxe]

Tricky! Its Tiny owl familiar grows hooves and prances about with feathers, wings, and a hairy tail. Undefined: whether it becomes Small.

<sigh>

I'm talking about familiars. I don't care about druids, and I think their Share Spells ability is silly. I would not allow said Druid/Wizard to share barkskin with his familiar, so I would not allow alter self to share with his animal companion.

But this is the rules forum and we are talking about the rules. Whether you would allow something or not (as a matter of personal preference, rather than as per the RAW) or whether you think something is silly is irrelevant, because the question is how to interpret the rules as they are written. The share spells mechanic is the same for both familiars and companions, and a similar problem to what we're discussing occurs if we're talking about a druid sharing Shapechange with his companion. And there is no prohibition, to my knowledge, against a druid/wizard sharing an arcane spell with his companion or a divine spell with his companion.

Part of the reason I prefer Hypersmurf's interpretation is that it does not result in spell effects that are impossible for any other creature. Alter Self specifically proscribes exactly what a given creature can become, including restricting it to creatures that exist in the MM (or perhaps other supplements); I do not think that the rule was meant to allow familiars to become creatures that do not exist in the MM, like small troglodytes, which no other creature can do using Alter Self.

--Axe

 

[Bad Paper]

...even a Wizard sharing a Barkskin from a Ring of Spell Storing or a Limited Wish with his familiar.

well, OK, but I would probably nix the Ring of Spell Storing

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size..."

The natural size of a Centaur is Large, not Tiny or Small.

"... and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings...)"

You specifically inherit the centaur's 'absence of wings'.

"You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind."

'Feathers' are not within the normal range of the hair texture of a centaur. Tiny or Small are not within the norms for a centaur, just as Mini-V is not within the norms for a human.

The feathers bit referred to the familiar being an owl. I figured that if the owl couldn't become a centaur, it would pick up some of the characteristics thereof, if only to retain its resemblance to its master. I don't have the PHB here, but I recall text saying that the master and familiar are essentially the same creature.

...

Despite this being the Rules forum, let's take a minute to set the game down, walk away, and thoughtfully consider the term "magical beast." Would a hyperintelligent owl temporarily adopting some of the traits of a centaur generally fall within the bounds of what you would consider to be a magical beast? Particularly as an artifact of another creature's self-altering magical effect?

...

Now that we're back in the game, let us again consider the term magical beast, in clumsy faux-Platonic dialogue:
Q: What makes it magical?
A: That it conforms so closely to all aspects of its masters behavior, and acts as a feedback mechanism for Master's power.
Q: What happens when its master outwardly transforms into an orc?
A: [what happens when master casts Alter Self]
Q: What happens when its master completely transforms into an orc?
A: [what happens when master casts Polymorph]

please edit at will. Describe the effects of the last two answers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The feathers bit referred to the familiar being an owl. I figured that if the owl couldn't become a centaur, it would pick up some of the characteristics thereof, if only to retain its resemblance to its master.

That's more like how Alter Self worked in 3E, where instead of assuming another form in its entirety, you modified your own in certain ways.

Alter Self doesn't work like that any more. You assume the form of another creature of the same type as yourself.

Despite this being the Rules forum, let's take a minute to set the game down, walk away, and thoughtfully consider the term "magical beast."

If we set the game down, all manner of terms lose their meaning. 'Type'. 'Humanoid'. 'Level'.

Where's the logic in examining game-specific mechanical terms outside the context of the game?

Q: What makes it magical?

Primarily, the Int greater than 2.

Q: What happens when its master outwardly transforms into an orc?
Q: What happens when its master completely transforms into an orc?

It depends on the mechanism he uses, and the choices that are made regarding the familiar when he does it.

-Hyp.

 

[Bad Paper]

That's more like how Alter Self worked in 3E, where instead of assuming another form in its entirety, you modified your own in certain ways.

ahh the halcyon days of 3.0. I want gills!

If we set the game down, all manner of terms lose their meaning. 'Type'. 'Humanoid'. 'Level'.

Those aren't the terms I was asking you to consider.

It depends on the mechanism he uses, and the choices that are made regarding the familiar when he does it.

Master Hypersmurf! Make something up! I want to see a Hyperproduced example, please! Several, even!

 

[Hypersmurf]

I want to see a Hyperproduced example, please! Several, even!

Okay. If he uses Alter Self to turn into an orc, and shares the Alter Self spell with his familiar, the familiar can turn into a Magical Beast within one size category and with 5 HD or less (as long as it remains within 5 feet of its master). For example, a shocker lizard, darkmantle, or stirge.

If he uses Polymorph to turn into an orc, and shares the Polymorph spell with his familiar, the familiar can turn into an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin, with 15 HD or less (limited by his caster level and HD), that isn't incorporeal, gaseous, or smaller than Fine. Whether it can be more than one size category larger than the familiar is debated. For example, a pixie, derro, or choker.

-Hyp.