You reap what you sow - GSL.

[Lizard]

I wonder if anyone could "pull an OSRIC" and use the OGL to print something almost, but not quite, like 4e, without getting at all involved in GSL.

The OGL would have nothing to do with it; if you try that, you'd just be using normal copyright law. If anything, the OGL would put you at greater risk.

I honestly don't see the point. Such a system would have no commercial use -- no one would risk money making supplements for such a risky venture. And if it's not commercial, then, what's the point? Having "Free" rules for 4e that are almost-sorta-kinda like the actual rules? Who gains? Who'd want them? Anyone who likes 4e will buy 4e.

OSRIC was written with the intent of allowing people to make 1e compatible commercial products to attract that tiny niche. A "4e OSRIC" would serve no commercial purpose. Only after 4e is dead would it have any reason to exist.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I was pondering this thread I realized I probably owe the folks at Mongoose an apology. It would seem the motivations I ascribed to them were incorrect, and that I was inflicting guilt by association based on the behavior of some of their customers. And, since I know at least Matt was reading this thread, this seems the place to do it.

So, I apologize.

Spoken like a true gentleman. Now, let's move on.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Say Matt... do you already have someone lined up to help out on Lone Wolf stuff? That is, assuming you're willing to put it up that is.

I gotta say, I'm a _big_ fan of Lone Wolf d20. It really is the _first_ d20 game I looked at and thought, "You know... I could run this, and it'd be totally cool."

I also happen to have the print copies of the game, Darklands, and Magic of Magnamund.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Say Matt... do you already have someone lined up to help out on Lone Wolf stuff? That is, assuming you're willing to put it up that is.

Give Mark Gedak a shout - you'll find him in the thread of the publisher's forum. . .

 

[Treebore]

The OGL would have nothing to do with it; if you try that, you'd just be using normal copyright law. If anything, the OGL would put you at greater risk.

I honestly don't see the point. Such a system would have no commercial use -- no one would risk money making supplements for such a risky venture. And if it's not commercial, then, what's the point? Having "Free" rules for 4e that are almost-sorta-kinda like the actual rules? Who gains? Who'd want them? Anyone who likes 4e will buy 4e.

OSRIC was written with the intent of allowing people to make 1e compatible commercial products to attract that tiny niche. A "4e OSRIC" would serve no commercial purpose. Only after 4e is dead would it have any reason to exist.

Were you around in the 80's? A 4E OSRIC would definitely be of use to people who would rather stay out of the GSL. I am willing to bet there would be more Judges Guild and other companies today then there were in the 80's. Some would be garbage, but then others would be like Judges Guild, absolute diamonds in the rough. Just like stuff under the 3E OGL and under OSRIC has been. Pretty darn good, for the most part.

Then again, people said Paizo were being foolish to stay with the 3E OGL. I think history is shaping up to show they were very smart to do so.

So doing a 4E OSRIC ASAP will also be a good move. If it stands up to legal scrutiny. Then again people claim OSRIC doesn't, but they haven't gotten so much as a "Cease and Desist" letter from WOTC after all these years.

Something competing directly with their current 4E product line would definitely get a very close look, and probably some legal bullying. IE "Cease and Desist" letters, even if the document is actually legal.

Researching copyright law is pretty easy these days, especially with so many colleges with law departments putting so many interesting articles up on their websites. Plus many of the Professors are very responsive to e-mail inquiries.

 

[Orcus]

So doing a 4E OSRIC ASAP will also be a good move. If it stands up to legal scrutiny. Then again people claim OSRIC doesn't, but they haven't gotten so much as a "Cease and Desist" letter from WOTC after all these years.

Tree, would you quite it please.

OSRIC is, in my view, 100% illegal and infringing. I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole. And doing what you call for is, in my view, similarly illegal.

Please quite holding up the fact that Wizards find OSRIC too irrelevant to take action against as some evdence of its legality.

 

[Treebore]

Tree, would you quite it please.

OSRIC is, in my view, 100% illegal and infringing. I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole. And doing what you call for is, in my view, similarly illegal.

Please quite holding up the fact that Wizards find OSRIC too irrelevant to take action against as some evdence of its legality.

That isn't the only evidence. The people behind OSRIC have had communications with WOTC, and they went forward with it. If WOTC wants to have a legal problem with OSRIC they better hurry up.

Even if OSRIC is illegal, which there is no legal proof that it is (meaning that no legal challenge has been made, not even a cease and desist letter), that doesn't mean a legal 4E OSRIC can't be created.

Besides, OSRIC is done in England, and only has to comply with English and international laws. Laws the US are obligated to accept and operate under due to various agreements. So maybe under US law it would be illegal if created and published in the US. Have you looked into it from that perspective?

I know that the US has had points of contention with international copyright in the past. Due to it being a bit "loose" in comparison to US law. So there are key differences that wouldn't hold up under US laws that would be just fine under English and international law.

So you are probably right about it not being legal under US law, but OSRIC falls under International laws. Which probably makes it legal in the US due to those trade and various other agreements I have mentioned.

So don't let fear control you! Look into it and do it if you think you can!

Like I have said elsewhere, copyright law is pretty easy to research now a days. Plus I have found numerous law professors open to answering e-mails. It isn't a mysterious issue that you need to go to the Oracles to find answers too.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Treebore, I don't think you're helping anything by giving conjecture about doing something that may be entirely illegal. Actions like that are more likely to have WotC determine that this GSL isn't worth the havoc and revoke it right away, hanging a lot of 3rd parties who hoped to put something out under the SGL by their petard. You're just feeding a fire that can only get the gaming community burned. Not to mention that there's kind of a thread for what you're talking about already.

 

[pemerton]

The OGL would have nothing to do with it; if you try that, you'd just be using normal copyright law. If anything, the OGL would put you at greater risk.

I don't think that this is entirely true, because the OGL permits one to use with permission the d20 SRD. OSRIC draws on that SRD, and so (presumably) would the hypothetical 4e OSRIC.

While not wanting to do too much of a dogpile on Treebore, I think that some people in these threads are a little careless about making assertions about what is or is not permissible under IP law without having much foundation (either legal expertise or legal advice) for those assertions.

Unlike Orcus, I'm not confident to express a definitive opinion about OSRIC. But I at least wonder whether it is making tortious use of WoTC's trademarks and/or goodwill (in Australia and the UK this would normally fall under the tort of passing off), and also whether it constitutes a derivative work or an adaptation of text in which WoTC enjoys the copyright.

 

[Treebore]

Treebore, I don't think you're helping anything by giving conjecture about doing something that may be entirely illegal. Actions like that are more likely to have WotC determine that this GSL isn't worth the havoc and revoke it right away, hanging a lot of 3rd parties who hoped to put something out under the SGL by their petard. You're just feeding a fire that can only get the gaming community burned. Not to mention that there's kind of a thread for what you're talking about already.

I am not giving conjecture. As I have insinuated I have researched copyright law and conversed via e-mail with several law professors, so I do have some idea of what I am talking about. I am just not a lawyer.

So instead of taking my, or Clarks, OPINION for it, look into it yourself. Its not hard.