Insubstantial rules irk anyone else?

[generalhenry]

It's so no player has to sit out an encounter.

 

[icarusfallz]

I don't really have a problem with the concept of being able to knock a swarm or something insubstantial prone. Prone is just a term. You could look at the swarm as being temporarily disrupted by the blow, forcing it to take an action to reform, returning from "prone". The same for an insub creature. The blow shook it for a second, or knocked it slightly out of phase. This way, your powers that do these things don't lose their potency.

The average person on the street wouldn't be able to pull this sort of thing off, but remember, PCs aren't average.

 

[Doomhawk]

you can knock an ooze or swarm prone just like anything else

Abstraction. The swarm scatters and skitters from a forceful attack, so it's at a disadvantage and must spend a moment regathering ("standing up") before it can move/attack at full effectiveness.

EDIT: Ninja'ed!

 

[DracoSuave]

Much like how at Game Day our DM didn't like calling the skeletons 'bloodied.'

We settled for chipped, armlessed, jawless'd, and other such silly words

 

[LowSpine]

Imagine having to devise a way to combat an intangible ghost or a foe that can turn into a wispy cloud of gas. Well, no special tactics required in D&D now. Just swing away and deal half damage.

This is the case with intangible creatures, swarms of bugs, oozes, and many other creatures. It's not even limited to damage-dealing; you can knock an ooze or swarm prone just like anything else. The notion that everything has to be affected by everything seems a bit of overkill IMO.

4e has its share of goodness, but this is just something that I"m not comfortable with. Anyone got any (constructive) points of view on this?

I have no problem with this. It is logical that if something can physically effect a target then it is substantial enough to be hit also.

Of course there could be ghost like creatures that cannot effect anything physical (and hence be physically un-attackable) but can attack non-physically such as int/wis/cha versus will.

If they can attack in that way then they should be effected by similar attacks from PCs.

Corporeal - Full damage both ways.

Insubstantial - 1/2 damage both ways.

Incorporeal - No damage both ways.


You could take this in the mental stats as well:

Higher Mind - Full damage both ways.

Animal Mind - 1/2 damage both ways.

Mindless - No damage both ways.


Or something like that.

 

[generalhenry]

Of course there could be ghost like creatures that cannot effect anything physical (and hence be physically un-attackable) but can attack non-physically such as int/wis/cha versus will.

having half the party sit out the fight is super lame

While it might be more 'real' that way, it's terrible game design

 

[Doomhawk]

having half the party sit out the fight is super lame

While it might be more 'real' that way, it's terrible game design

No no, it's okay, the other Twin Emperor is only affected by physical damage. Just watch out for the teleport!
I mean, uh...


(For the uninitiated, it's a boss fight in WoW. My point is that for any 'realistic' rule for incorporeality, not having half the party benched requires an extremely contrived situation.)

 

[Slaved]

The biggest problem that I have with Insubstantial is when it is on a Minion. Insubstantial Minions gain no Benefit from being Insubstantial. I do not like that. If a Minion has Resistances or Immunities or Bonuses to Defenses they gain all of that but if they are Insubstantial they get no Benefit from it!

 

[Rechan]

I have no problem with insubstantial, or ghosts being knocked prone, etc, as it ahs been described here.

 

[LowSpine]

What happened to running away?

If you come against something you cannot beat - run away.

Come back later when you figure out a way (or get strong enough) to put up a fight. If they are unattackable, find a special trick/ritual to make them attackable and then go and kick their arse.

Why does everyone just walk in a place and fight till they die? (It is allot worse in 4E now.)

Back in Red Box D&D I had a module that had some harpys the PCs couldn't possibly defeat (even though they were the right level for the module). I kept them in because they could have tried to avoid them or run away/past. (They were not detrimental to the plot part.)


We went through it 3 times (there is no excuse for 2 and 3 - they knew they were there) They got frustrated that they couldn't kill them and I sacked it off because if they hadn't got the imagination to 'run away' it wasn't worth the effort (that and the fact that a couple were habitual wingers. Still are 17 years later.)