Why I don't like 4th edition

[Steely Dan]

Then there is the reliance on miniatures.

1st Ed was mini/grid/tactical/"board-game" heavy.

D&D has always been two games, amateur dramatics/storytelling (non-combat), and a "board game" (combat).

And true role-playing transcends any game or system.

...At least now the "board-game" part of it isn't crap.

 

[Styracosaurus]

3e combats were great from third to eighth level, were okay after that until about eleventh level and then became grossly complex. The one thing that 3e did well was make a combat last about five or six rounds. However, each round grew and grew until it was not pleasant to have combat. Frequently, we'd forget various small bonuses and even AoO because we'd become braintired due to all the iterative attacks. My 3.5 game (we are about 13th level) has become mostly interactive storytelling and we only dice out the important aspects of a combat. It is fine for a while, but I can see the limits of the system. There are things that I like about 3e and things that I don't like, but I could live with it.

4e jumps into the middle ground for length of combat, but each round goes quickly. Everyone is active and the conditional modifiers are easier to track. We can handle marking and there is more strategy. So, I'd say that 4e combats are comparable to mid level 3e combats. The real advantage to 4e will be that you can have a 20th level combat that works and works in a reasonable amount of real time.

 

[Cadfan]

This is amazing to me. But, I'm wondering were these fights with minions, or full monsters? I've noticed minion or majority minion fights go considerably quicker (but get more and more boring) over time.

Four PCs.

The monsters were rethemed heavily. Everything was rat related, mostly due to an inside joke. In terms of behind-the-scenes game statistics, these were the fights:

Fight 1
Three ratmen (the level 2 giant rats or dire rats or whatever they were called)
One ratman slinger (kobold slinger)

Fight 2
One ratman slinger
Two ratmen
Six giant rat minions from the DMG

Fight 3
Two ratmen bodyguards (kobold dragonshields)
One ratman shaman (the kobold chieftain from the DMG scenario)
One flying critter (the flying drake from the DMG scenario)
One trap (the shaman opened a sluice that washed the room with a surge of sewage, washing the low fortitude wizard away from the party to get jumped by one of the bodyguards)

Fight 4
SuperRat (the DMG dragon, reduced to 150 hp, without breath weapon or flight)
Two rat swarms

In fight 2, the slinger ran away once all his allies died. He got added back in to fight 4 (he summoned SuperRat from deep in the sewers). The flying critter ran away rather than die, once its hit points dropped to bloodied.

 

[Obryn]

I know that I, personally, haven't run enough 4e to say for sure how quickly things will go once the system becomes more familiar.

So far, my group's fights have been interesting, entertaining, and dynamic. Somewhat slow, mind you - but that's largely due to so much stuff being unfamiliar.

If I do end up with lots of 90-minute battles where nothing happens, it's safe to say my opinions of the game will change significantly.

-O

 

[JRRNeiklot]

1st Ed was mini/grid/tactical/"board-game" heavy.

I've played 1e from 1981 to 2,000 and off and on since 2,000 and have just now returned to it. I can't remember ever having used miniatures, though I'm sure we did on an occasion or two, maybe setting down a coke bottle for a storm giant or a dog's toy for a dragon or something.

1e may have have sprouted from a miniature game, but saying it is mini heavy is far from correct in my experience, which involves many groups and cons over the years.

 

[Steely Dan]

1e may have have sprouted from a miniature game, but saying it is mini heavy is far from correct in my experience, which involves many groups and cons over the years.

Heard it all before, your choice and the people you played with, I too didn't use minis or a grid in my 1st/2nd Ed days, but you have to be in denial to say the game has not always been intended to be played with some type of grid/map and minis/markers.

 

[DM_Jeff]

For instance, why did they decide to make the fights drag out so long!?! If I were watching a Star Wars movie that had a 90 min lightsaber duel, with a tacked on 10 minute skill challenge and 20 minute story, I'd get pretty bored. The DMG emphasizes keeping a fast pace and moving on to the fun.

I think the theory is that fun = combat, or so they would have you beleive. I have not played 4e yet but studied it and heard from friends who have about the long combats. Really, the proof is at WotC itself. Did you go watch the latest video podcast? It's a 7 round example of a combat that takes 45 minutes...and nothing happens. PCs and monsters nickle and dime each other, then healing surge it all back for an eternal struggle where no one fell, no one was really in danger and it was all a bunch of movement and trying to track who marked who. They stop it after 7 rounds and it could have gone on and on with no telling victory anywhere in sight.

My wife saw it and the part where the one poor fellow was caught by a mind flayer's four tentacles (which just slowly eat your brain over minutes now apparently, which I guess is more fun than 'instant death from brain suckage'?) and came up with this clever ditty:

Player: Mr. DM, how many rounds does it take to get to finish the brain of a humanoid creature?
DM: Let's find out. One, ta-hoo, a-three, four, fa-hive, a-six, seven...
Player: Kill me now.

-DM Jeff

 

[LeStryfe79]

I've always felt like the previous editions had a "use miniatures if you want to" feel. This was less so in 3rd and less again in 4th. I do think a quality DM makes for a bigger difference w/out miniatures. However, with choices including character creation, basic actions, power selection, and when to use an action point, I feel like tactics are already covered. Unfortunately, there comes a time when tactics outweigh the other elements of the game. Many of the systems within 4th edition actually dumb down certain tactics. For instance the use of universal modifiers, character roles, and double stat defenses make sure everyone's on a similar page. I think quality tactics in a tabletop should live outside the cardboard. After all, RPGs have enough to worry about. Some people prefer strategic, miniature game combat, but I don't feel like that's a majority. For instance. a popular console RPG usually outsells a popular SRPG. I liken the combat in 4th edition to an SRPG more so than to an MMO. Most players like getting a certain number of quality choices, I simple question the methods WotC used to present them in 4th edition.

 

[Kesh]

So far, I've only see one 4e combat run excessively long.

In Keep on the Shadowfell,

Spoiler

when you finally enter the kobold lair there's a bunch of kobolds to kill. We flubbed a few attack rolls and used a couple of our encounter powers… then the elite and his two guards joined the fight a few rounds later. Took forever to grind him down, especially when we were trying to mop up the last few minions & regular kobolds. If we hadn't messed up the earlier bits and blown our Encounter powers too soon, it would've gone faster.

 

[Steely Dan]

My wife saw it and the part where the one poor fellow was caught by a mind flayer's four tentacles (which just slowly eat your brain over minutes now apparently, which I guess is more fun than 'instant death from brain suckage'?) and came up with this clever ditty:

Player: Mr. DM, how many rounds does it take to get to finish the brain of a humanoid creature?
DM: Let's find out. One, ta-hoo, a-three, four, fa-hive, a-six, seven...
Player: Kill me now.

I wouldn't say that's particularly clever (no offense to your wife), but we know what she was trying to do.