The tragedy of 4th edition.

[Bohemian Ear Spoon]

Seems like the 3E errata were of a minor nature to fix and balance things, but the 4E errors (to me at least) seem to be of a different nature, they are a symptom of a larger problem, not just un-polished, but I would have to describe it as "not well thought out..."

The Eladrin teleport is my favorite example. The idea that a core race could just pop all over the place, I cannot even imagine what their homes, cities, society must be like to have such an awesome power. Excellent and kewl as a tactical combat move, but totally completely WORLD BREAKING as anything else. (Imho)

 

[Is_907]

Teleporting 5 squares isn't very much of a world breaker, Bohemian Ear Spoon. In combat, it's only allowed once per encounter. Great for leading you into one nice attack.

Out of combat how is that a problem? No one is teleporting from their house to the next plane or country; they're just going down the street one block (with line of sight, I might add).

 

[The Little Raven]

Seems like the 3E errata were of a minor nature to fix and balance things, but the 4E errors (to me at least) seem to be of a different nature, they are a symptom of a larger problem, not just un-polished, but I would have to describe it as "not well thought out..."

3rd Edition had some serious errata (3.5 changed the entire text of spells, for example), while most of the 4e errata is just clarification.

The Eladrin teleport is my favorite example. The idea that a core race could just pop all over the place, I cannot even imagine what their homes, cities, society must be like to have such an awesome power.

So, the problem is that it's a core race that does it, as opposed to a power creep race from later in the edition?

 

[Andor]

I like how you say this is not a review, and then promptly review it.

I don't know, I find this to be a more prepared and more thought out product than 3.0 was. I doubt there will be a 4.5, as they've stated their intent to fix things online, but, still.

Compared to 3.0 when it wasn't even a month old.. this game looks like the holy grail.

I said it's not a review of gameplay. And I did not touch on gameplay.

And I too recall 3e's release and there were no problems as fundamental as those in 4e. Pop quiz, a paladin makes a Holy Strike using a Lifedrinking weapon. What kind of damage is delt? What if he crits? Does Dark Fury add to damage and if so why? Please cite rules references.

 

[Nifft]

What is the problem with this ability?

The answer to this is inappropriate to this thread. See here.

-- N

 

[The Little Raven]

And I too recall 3e's release and there were no problems as fundamental as those in 4e.

Aside from wonky math and spells that were broken and weren't truly fixed until late into the edition's life. Polymorph, Flurry of Blows, substandard rangers were all problems from the outset.

Pop quiz, a paladin makes a Holy Strike using a Lifedrinking weapon.

Sure thing, teach.

What kind of damage is delt?

Radiant. Unlike flaming and frost weapons, there is no ability to convert the magic item's weapon damage into necrotic damage (only bonus necrotic on a critical hit).

What if he crits?

Radiant, plus 1d6 necrotic damage per enhancement plus.

Does Dark Fury add to damage and if so why?

No, because the power (Holy Strike) does not have the Necrotic or Psychic keywords, which is the requirement for Dark Fury to work. The weapon does not give the power new keywords.

 

[Scribble]

Pop quiz, a paladin makes a Holy Strike using a Lifedrinking weapon. What kind of damage is delt?

1 [W] + STR Radiant damage. (and + WILL if he marked his target.)

PHB (92)

What if he crits?

+1d6 Necrotic damage per plus.

PHB (235)

Not sure I understand the issue? Is it that you feel the two should not work together? Is this assumtion supported in the rules? (I'm not sure, but I don't see anything to signify this.)

Does Dark Fury add to damage and if so why? Please cite rules references.

I'd say no.

Per PHB:

You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls when you use a power that has the necrotic or psychic keyword.

The power you're using (holy strike) has the Divine, Radiant, and Weapon keywords. None of which are Necrotic or Psychic.

 

[Kraydak]

4e reads to me somewhat like Iron Heroes: some good ideas, some decent ideas, all combined with a lack of quality playtesting (anyone remember the flurry of playtesting threads back in what? January or February?). NO ONE apparently ran 4e through the wringer and found the rule wierdnesses/power issues that were noticed on day 1 of release (Blade Cascade/Keywords/Seal of Binding/Twin Attacks vs Careful/Skill Challenges etc...).

But the real tragedy, to me, is that WotC set out to make a modern superheroes game and tried to retrofit it for a fantasy setting:

(1) The addition of magic items (or generally, gear based powerups NOT treated as inherent to the wielder) broke the level based scalings. If you dropped Stat boosts/Magic items and gave a flat +1 to d20 rolls/level the scalings would work. What genre is the above appropriate for? Superheroes, where gear is a special effect and stats are on two different scales (mere mortal and superheroic, which is better modeled as a power than a slow level based scaling). This is the biggy: the rule skeleton of 4e does not work very well over a large level range, but WOULD work superbly for a superhero port.

(2) The "economy" of 4e. DnD is about killing things and taking their stuff. This requires a half-decent economic model (to give you a use for the stuff). 4e doesn't want you to loot things really (because it messes up their wealth system). So why not move to a genre where "stuff" is unimportant?

(3) HP as morale based/lack of crippling injury. This isn't an horrific stretch in fantasy, but fits superhero campaigns a whole lot better.

4e: We forgot what genre we were designing for, and we forgot to/didn't know how to playtest the game, too.

 

[blargney the second]

Does WotC tend to fix editing errors like this in later printings?
-blarg

 

[jdrakeh]

Does WotC tend to fix editing errors like this in later printings?
-blarg

Yes. I almost held off on picking up the current PHB for this reason but I figured that downloading the errata document would hold me over (and it did).