Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And I do not think it is a valid comparison. Really, at all. Even if currently you can't find any real life examples.

Okay. But then we can't really talk about "realistic" explanations or what the system is trying to model, since we don't know the topic of the model. It's like discussing a physical model of a flying ball if we've never seen a flying ball or had any statistical data describing its behavior in flight.

 

[xechnao]

All I'm saying here is that your argument that "this is just fighting in a ring and these guys would be sissies in a real fight in a street" is bogus.

No you are twisting my argument. What I was saying is that put any normal guy including those trained to be professional boxers or mma pros to face such a situation and leave him the option to avoid it and see what happens.

My point is that these guys would have no confidence or advantage due to their ring skills versus a really mad guy that puts all his energy into violence (not ring victory-which are two different things).

I just came up with a fact: that in some European countries, the use of martial arts by champions in "real life" situation would be considered as unpremeditated murder because they used force to their "unfair advantage", even if they were the ones attacked.

And I think this makes no sense. It is not applicable. If you are threatened and respond violently to save your ass how can one distinguish one physical violence from another? There is not such a thing.

What fact can you bring to argue that excellent fighters in a ring would consistently suck in real life fights or psychologically break down under the pressure? That's just silly talk so far, to me.

I said if you asked them they would choose to run away and save the day if there was such an oprion -as any normal guy. If they were pitted and forced to face a situation they would do so -as anyone among us would ultimately defend himself if he had no other choice.

The only considerable parameter here can be one's fitness level. But you do not need to be a martial artist for this. Any guy that has any physical activity that conditions his fitness at optimum levels would fare the same as far as any advantage he can have in a physical situation, including violence.

Regarding ring pros. We are all humans you know. They do not have a different abilities than you and me -including violence which is something instinctive. Only ring memory and specialized conditioning for lasting in the ring sport they are specialized to.

Okay. But then we can't really talk about "realistic" explanations or what the system is trying to model, since we don't know the topic of the model. It's like discussing a physical model of a flying ball if we've never seen a flying ball or had any statistical data describing its behavior in flight.

We are humans. We are talking about our human abilities that helped us survive so far in the wild. This is how we are made. I do not think we can't try to model realistically these things. But you better ask a physiologist or biologist (or think about it from such a perspective) than take examples from cultural traditions such as boxing or martial arts.

 

[BryonD]

As for me, the actual rules have very little to do with my immersion, as long as you have a descriptive DM and a good story, you should be fine,

You do realize that the exact same hand wave could be used to explain why Descent is just as good an RPG as 4e, or why just sitting around the table making up everything ad hoc (even with no consistency) is just as good an RPG as 4e. Right? Because if what you said is real truth, then this is the case. And I'd wager the guys at WotC would like to think they have done better than just letting you sit around the table.

I've been able to play pretend and act like Superman since I was 3 or 4 years old. And yet I like Mutants and Masterminds. And the reason for that has EVERYTHING to do with the rules. Yes, a good DM and a good story are ALSO very important. But those are completely unrelated to what system is used.

The reality is that a rules system that does a good job of modeling how Superman interacts with the world around him can be a huge boon to the immersion. Or it can be a hindrance. In either case my ability to play pretend is not impacted. But the resulting enjoyment can be greatly impacted.

4E does a much better job of producing that simulation than Descent or just sitting around the table. Purely because of the quality of the rules. A good DM with a good story would have the experience he produces improved by the RULES of 4e.

However, for the level of game I desire, 3E is even better than 4e. Solidly better IMO. And I know there are a lot of people who agree with me.

 

[Rel]

Maybe it would be best if everybody would refocus their thoughts on the OP rather than arguing over the use of this metaphor.

 

[xechnao]

Maybe it would be best if everybody would refocus their thoughts on the OP rather than arguing over the use of this metaphor.

It is the fourth thread talking about the same thing. My take regarding the OP is that once per day abilities make sense. There are other things that perhaps do not make sense and regarding the use of dailies specifically, things such as that you can activate them whenever you like or what you activate with the daily: activating an augmentation of stats is more believable than providing a special combat maneuver or trick.

Do I need to make a new thread now to talk about it? J/K

 

[drothgery]

What Dannyalcatraz said.

Also, those were exceptions (what are the "etc" btw?), not a core mechanism for every class. So they were easier to ignore.
I didn't even notice stunning fist because no one ever played a monk in my games.

Err... the only 3.5 PH class that didn't have daily abilities by default was the fighter. It's true that most of them were called 'spells' (which 7 of 11 classes had).

 

[Tervin]

Disclaimer: This here is not written out of being a fan of a certain edition of a certain game. Just out of my philosophy when it comes to RPGs.

If I try to stop and think about "suspension of disbelief", and when I have felt it myself when I have looked at a load of games over a lot of years I find the following: If I don't like a game, I will have a tendency to disbelieve it. If I like a game, I will have no trouble suspending the disbelief or even ignoring those thoughts. To me, roleplaying is an extension of make-believe and improvisation. For that reason it is very much about accepting things as they are presented to you, and then adding to those things with your own ideas. With skepticism we get no game at all.

I know, I should respect the simulationist view. And I do. I just feel that we have to accept certain things as game tools that have little to do with simulation and everything to do with making the game playable and fun. The reason why games have "per day" uses of powers is that it makes the game less repetitive - you will not use the same power combinations for every combat. In order to immerse myself in the game, I have to have game rules that make sense, that is true. But if I want them to make sense to me, I will succeed. If I don't want to, I will fail. I am that stupid and predictable.

This might just be true for me. But it is still the reason why I have no trouble with daily uses of non-magical effects and powers. Unless they show in a stupid game that I don't like. Then I think they stink.

 

[lutecius]

Err... the only 3.5 PH class that didn't have daily abilities by default was the fighter. It's true that most of them were called 'spells' (which 7 of 11 classes had).

Well, you answered half of this yourself (look at the thread's title and what i wrote about Smite Evil)

The rest of the answer being in the part of my post you quoted: "core mechanism for every class"

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sorry, here's a long one.

Disagree with the statement that the Skill of the Target and the Skill of the Attacker is irrelevant.

You're misunderstanding my assertion.

It is irrelevant in the matter of the specific mechanic that we're discussing- namely, once dailies.

Regardless of the 4Ed PC's level, a once daily exploit remains once daily- no additional uses of a particular daily power are ever gained by leveling.

In 3.X, most (but not all) once daily powers gain additional uses as the PC levels in a class that grants the power.

Disagree about lag.

Again, we're only talking about # of uses a daily gets. Not richness of tactical options or anything else.

Who cares if the Barbarian is a one trick pony. He's doing the trick more than once per day.

AtomicPope
Martial Exploits being performed 1/day is easy to explain - watch MMA.

At best you've explained why certain exploits are usable once per encounter, and then, only in the context of combatants of equal ability. I'm sure if you went to a dojo and watched the master spar with several different students on a given day, he could probably execute most of his tricks against any given opponent, save for his best students. Against his newest/worst students, there probably isn't a martial exploit he couldn't execute at will.

FireLance
Same with villian's menace - focusing so much attention on a single opponent and reacting quickly to take advantage of the gaps in his defences is mentally and physically tiring. You just can't focus yourself and move as quickly to do the same to another opponent until you've rested.

And 2 hours later, after a massage and a beer, he's jumped again...and still can't use his daily?

Man! That really IS draining.

-Act of Desperation
You can only get angry because a friend dies once per day

How many times a day you get angry over your dead buddy depends upon how many people insult your dead buddy in 24 hours, your anger management issues, etc.

-Deadly Payback
You can only counter an enemy once per day

And the next enemy who is just as deserving and provoking? He gets a pass, apparently.

-Defensive Training
The fighter can only fight disciplined once per day

Naga, please! A trained warrior fights disciplined nearly every time he fights. Check the MMA guys. Check Fight Science. Check out your local dojo or boxing gym.

-Reign of Terror
You can only stare at the enemies once per day

I'm pretty sure you can stare at whomever you want as many times as you want as intensely as you want for however long you want until the cops arrest you as a stalker.

Either that, or the Swiss Guards and the guys at Buckingham Palace are breaking the 4Ed rules...

-Stalwart Guard
You can protect allies with your shield only once per day

In the RW, there were warriors whose entire job was to defend a particular person from harm with their shield and their bodies. I'm pretty sure they didn't just sit down after using the shield once and say "Dude, I'm tapped!"

-(Ranger)Open the Range
You can only keep the distance from enemies once per day

That flies in the face of almost every battle involving archers and similar ranged combat specialists.

Lucky shots don't exist in the real world.

So, Buster Douglas really was better than Mike Tyson?

You say it like it's common place. Provide an example. Please don't flood the thread with unsupported objections.

Lets examine boxing, since its much simpler than most martial arts competitions.

In a heavyweight boxing match (well, one that goes the distance, anyway), there are hundreds of punches thrown by each fighter. You're talking about a small variety of blows (jabs, uppercuts, roundhouses, etc.) thrown left or right handed. It is rarely the single blow that wins, but a combo and/or attrition.

Even when watching more complex forms, its combos, not single maneuvers, that win. A fighter targets what he perceives as his foe's weakness, then goes after it. Sometimes that results in a KO or a serious injury, like a broken leg...but it wasn't one blow, it was the accumulation of blows.

Like chopping down a tree, the leg that buckles or breaks has been kicked by the same blow in the same location perhaps as many as a dozen times. The blow that finally brings the foe to his knees wasn't particularly strong- it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Nor was it more fatiguing to the deliverer- he's just tired from everything he did in the fight.

drothgery
Err... the only 3.5 PH class that didn't have daily abilities by default was the fighter.

Again, CORE, in almost every case, you gained more uses of those dailies the more you advanced in a class. And in the expansions, most of those dailies gained extra uses per day through feats.

To this point in 4Ed, once dailies remain once dailies regardless of PC level.

Why does your suspension of disbelief require a chance that it will succeed more often? Isn't 1/day enough for something that's hard to pull off?

Its hard to pull off 1/day against a similarly skilled opponent. Against a kid or a 55 year old couch potato, its an unstoppable at will ability.

But even so...

Consider the example put forth by Master Bruce Lee when he had his "coming out party" at a 1960s convention of martial arts masters (all black belts or equivalent) from around the world.

There is footage of him in educational sparring matches in which he is repeatedly striking this master in the head with the same move over and over again; of sweeping the same leg out from under another master, and so forth.

In the 1960s, Bruce demonstrations in several cities, including the Long Beach International Karate Championships. There, he challenged Vic Moore to stop his famous "unstoppable punch." When Moore was ready, nodding in affirmation, Lee glided towards him, throwing a straight punch directly at Moore's face, stopping before impact. Moore blocked zero of the 8 punches thrown.

In 1973, there is Bob Wall's account of Bruce Lee meeting the challenge of an extra (who happened to be a street tough) on the set of Enter the Dragon. Despite being bigger and stronger, he was easily beaten by a few sweeps and a multitude of strikes to the face.

Simply put, the once daily martial move doesn't exist in the RW. It is, at best, an illusion created by the way fights between evenly matched opponents seem to end.

 

[FireLance]

Simply put, the once daily martial move doesn't exist in the RW. It is, at best, an illusion created by the way fights between evenly matched opponents seem to end.

On this, at least, we agree. As I said earlier in this thread (post #17):

Possibly not an ordinary left hook - that wouldn't be particularly draining. In fact, I'd venture to say that most of us will have about as much experience with martial dailies as we have with arcane spells. A left hook is not a daily - it's a basic attack, or maybe an at-will. A tremendously powerful punch - one that leaves you with sore knuckles and a slightly pulled bicep - that comes close to a daily. Or at least, that's how I would envision brute strike working, and why you need to give your body time to recover before you can do it again. Same with villian's menace - focusing so much attention on a single opponent and reacting quickly to take advantage of the gaps in his defences is mentally and physically tiring. You just can't focus yourself and move as quickly to do the same to another opponent until you've rested.​

If there is nothing in the real world that is so tiring or straining that it can't be used again until you have had six hours of rest, then by definition daily martial moves (like magic spells) do not exist in the real world.

However, if you can accept the possibility that these sorts of techniques can exist in a fantasy world, and that there are ways in which trained characters can push their minds and bodies so far beyond their normal limits that they are unable to repeat them without rest, then you can accept the existence of daily martial maneuvers.