Just an observation: There seem to be two modes of thinking about the Channel Energy mechanics. One camp thinks it is somewhat overpowered, while the other thinks it is balanced. It bears noting, that virtually nobody thinks it is underpowered. At least we can all agree on that as a common point of departure for further discussion.
Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Turning
- Thread starter Roman
- Start date
Phlebas
First Post
its also worth noting that in the playtesting i've done, every cleric took extra channeling and relatively high charisma to get the maximum benefit from the channeling mechanic
(I quite like the idea of encouraging cha for clerics, after all they are supposed to be leaders and its nice to give them tangible benefits for a good roleplaying option)
(I quite like the idea of encouraging cha for clerics, after all they are supposed to be leaders and its nice to give them tangible benefits for a good roleplaying option)
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
I'm all in favor of fixing Turn Undead, but I am not sold on this solution.
It's trying to do too much. By combining "the healing problem" with "the turning problem" it's opening itself to other problems.
I'd much rather see them tackle the two problems separately.
With respect to Turn Undead (apart from the healing mechanic), this solution suffers from the same inherent problem as prior versions:
Non-intelligent undead get more HD for their CR than intelligent undead, making them more resistant to turning than the free-willed undead.
Maybe that's by design, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. I think that's an unintended consequence, myself.
The Gray Render zombie in the SRD has 20HD... and it's CR6. Such creatures also typically have a Will save more than double their CR. The Gray Render has Will +12.
Compared to the CR7 Spectre: 7 HD, 45 hp, Will +7, +2 turn resistance, CR7.
I would prefer to see the turning mechanic unhooked from HD/hp directly, and perhaps make more account of intelligent/non-intelligent undead status. If Turn Undead is dramatically more effective against non-intelligent undead, this helps mitigate the HD/CR discrepancy.
I would at least double the damage (or disallow saves for) non-intelligent undead.
It's trying to do too much. By combining "the healing problem" with "the turning problem" it's opening itself to other problems.
I'd much rather see them tackle the two problems separately.
With respect to Turn Undead (apart from the healing mechanic), this solution suffers from the same inherent problem as prior versions:
Non-intelligent undead get more HD for their CR than intelligent undead, making them more resistant to turning than the free-willed undead.
Maybe that's by design, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. I think that's an unintended consequence, myself.
The Gray Render zombie in the SRD has 20HD... and it's CR6. Such creatures also typically have a Will save more than double their CR. The Gray Render has Will +12.
Compared to the CR7 Spectre: 7 HD, 45 hp, Will +7, +2 turn resistance, CR7.
I would prefer to see the turning mechanic unhooked from HD/hp directly, and perhaps make more account of intelligent/non-intelligent undead status. If Turn Undead is dramatically more effective against non-intelligent undead, this helps mitigate the HD/CR discrepancy.
I would at least double the damage (or disallow saves for) non-intelligent undead.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I'm not convinced by your argument. The gray render zombie may have a lot of hit dice and a decent Will save (and hit points) because of it, but it should also reflect a pretty major outlay of magical resources to make. A zombie that big and powerful should have a lot of magic holding it together even if it is mindless.
By comparison, that spectre is 13 hit dice behind the render zombie but is only 3 points behind in actually resisting the urge to flee. That's not doing too badly at all, particularly when it's still non-corporeal, can flee right through solid objects, and can be expected to negate half of all AoO attacks made on it as it turns to run.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Set aside the rationalization and focus on the core issue:
The CR6 Gray Render is harder to turn and/or destroy in any version of Turn Undead, 3e or Pathfinder, than the CR7 Spectre.
Again: CR6 non-intelligent is harder to turn/destroy than CR7 free-willed.
In-game rationalizations have nothing to do with it. That is a mechanics issue, and it's either intended-by-design or broken-by-accident.
Because of the underlying mechanics determining how undead are built, that's always going to be the case. A non-intelligent creature of CR=X is going to be harder to turn than a free-willed creature of CR=X.
Perhaps that is a feature. I think it's a bug.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I don't really have a problem with it. Some creatures are more or less susceptible to different attacks than others, even at the same CR. Big and massive means fairly resistant to a lot of stuff - unstoppable force juggernauts being what they are. I don't see why free-willed has to figure into it at all. Free willed undead are, HD for HD, probably going to do better overall than the non-free willed ones and I think that's a better determinant than CR, which incorporates a lot more factors than just raw toughness of the monster.
Just an observation here and I don't mean to nitpick, but Extra Turning (from the PF rulebook) can't really be used in Pathfinder the way it is currently written.
The text for Extra Turning reads (PF pg 66):
Prereq: Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.
Benefit: You can turn or rebuke undead two additional times per day.
Since clerics now Channel Energy, the only way a cleric can "turn" anything anymore is with the Turn Elemental and Turn Outsider feats. So the only way to even qualify for the feat, let alone get any benefit from it (and even this is a stretch of the rules), would be when used against an undead elemental or an undead outsider.
In addition, there is no feat that allows rebuking of any kind so using negative energy in this way is out completely.
John
Scott DeWar
Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
*tosses two coppers on the table*
in my humble opinion perhaps you are not touogh enough on your grouop. i have been running "a dark and stormy knight" module in alpha releas 3 and had the party almost dead, or at least hurt bad and out of healing. I must admitt that i did juice up the module a bit... well maybe a bit more then a bit. At any rate, it depends on how tough you are on you characterrs. I have been using an encounter method developed by one Wolf ratbane here on enworld. if i can find it, i will link it.
but the over all effect is that you can really make things enjoyable, yet tough.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
You really make it hard for me to ego-stroke name searches on myself when you do that.
Scott DeWar
Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
Keep in mind that is my humble opinion, and i am the most humble man in the world and proud of it.
*pours two shots of Dewer's Scotch, raises one and says, *
to Wolf Ratbane ...may your legacey live forever!
*glug*
found it:
it is here
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