Why the merger of two categories?

[Crothian]

For me it would depend on the book. Everything gets at least one good read through, some get more. The ones I got to playtest got even more so that was nice for those games we got early.

 

[fusangite]

Let me shed some light at least on the lack of podcasting submissions.

Frankly, the submission process for a digitally available product (and while I'm talking about podcasts, I'll include here as well PDF game products) is archaic and ridiculous. Why should I go through the process of burning CDs and mailing them, when I can send an email with download links customized for the submission process?

Because those are the rules of the awards. They are asking you to incur less cost than anyone else. Everyone else is forced to send them copies of their products that vastly exceed the per-product value of a CD and an envelope. If the award is worth so little to you that it is not worth a few dollars to submit your product, then fine -- don't submit. Leave the awards to people who actually value receiving them.

Most academic journals, publishers and awards organizations keep requirements like this in today's electronic age because they weed out people who lack a real interest in submitting their stuff. They typically lack the personnel to read through piles of spam or vet random incompetent crap submitted on a lark. If the opportunity cost of submitting to an awards process is less than that of photocopying your backside at work, what kind of awards process is it going to be? (In addition, it doesn't hurt to have a procedure that forces podcasters to pick their best five episodes in a totally unequivocal way.)

It defeats the basic principle of them being downloadable digital content in the first place.

How fortunate that the ENnie awards don't take a position on that "principle" then.

As a general rule, we had little to no problem (there were some, but that can be covered in another thread) with the fact that we were asked to submit only 6 episodes for review, but the backlash against the submission process was overwhelming.

It sounds to me like the podcasting community wouldn't really value an awards from the ENnies then. If requiring a demonstration of basic competence and commitment to the process is offensive, perhaps it is best that the awards and podcasters come to a parting of the ways.

Why not have your own awards?

And yes, you can argue that why the hell are we making such a big fuss over sending some CDs in the mail when some people have to ship really heavy books. To that I'd say it has to do with the principle

Sorry but these objections don't rise to the level of principle.

This year, with the requirement for the CD, I passed on submitting my show -- I didn't feel comfortable with extending my carbon footprint to mail a CD containing content that is naturally available freely online.

You know: I have little patience for people who hide behind lame environmental rhetoric to make excuses for not having their excrement together.

Many of us podcasters work hard as media,

I'm sorry, I was unaware that how hard the product's creator worked was a factor that judges were supposed to evaluate.

The ENnies are designed to reward quality products. They do not and should not give a damn how hard anyone works.

A number of us, including myself, strive to be professionals in this field

It seems to me that a mark of professionalism is the capacity to meet basic criteria, like being capable financially and physically of mailing out 6 CDs. If fulfilling the basic criteria of an organization with which you are trying to interact is beyond you, I can't really see how professional you could be.

So, for podcasts to be regulated to "fan product" does read like a slap in the face -- after all, there's little difference between a guy in his home making an audio show and a guy in his home making an indie game book. We're both producing independent products for others -- as games or as media.

Podcasters should count themselves lucky that they are being compared to amateurs rather than professionals. Now that a year has passed, let me tell you what I said when I was an ENnies judge last year. I stated that I had listened to the podcasts that were submitted and felt that the category should be removed, that not enough podcasts were up to the standards of the co-op radio show my friends did when they were in high school.

Your category shouldn't even exist. The fact that only a tiny minority of podcasters were capable of amassing the resources to mail out six CDs only confirms the conclusions I reached last year. You people don't want to be up against individuals capable of utilizing postal outlets and stationery stores competently. They'd blow you out of the water.

If it were me in this situation, I can guarantee I would be emailing to have my nomination removed from the ENnies

You would have no choice. If you couldn't afford stamps, my guess is that long distance fees would be out of your reach.

-- I would have submitted for "Best Podcast," not "Best Fan Product."

Well, then you would have realized that because the judges reserve the right to reorder the categories so as to guarantee that every product submitted is considered, I guess you would never have signed the agreement necessary to enter the awards.

(But, to be fair, that's easy to say as someone who didn't submit because of the archaic CD process.)

The process is brand new. Last year, the judges were forced to comb through dozens of podcasts per nominee. So they changed the procedure so as to force those submitting to select which podcasts they wanted to be judged on.

How nice that an added benefit of this was that people who lack the elementary competence needed to place something in a mailbox with correct postage could be eliminated in the process!

Thank you for last year -- you guys did an amazing job with our category, even with some turbulence that, frankly, y'all took care of fantastically well.

Nice that you're ending on a complimentary note after your litany of complaints.

But I'm afraid your olive branch here only further annoys me. We made bad decisions last year. We should never have let the category go to a vote. And we should never have let the disgraced cheaters fillibuster the awards ceremony (disguised as an awards presentation).

 

[C.W.Richeson]

I really enjoy listening to podcasts. I remember meeting Ryan at Gen Con last year, when I was totally pumped on Sons of Kryos (and no doubt yelled too loudly for them during the ENnies). He struck me as a real nice guy, and I immediately checked out his podcast when I got back home. While it wasn't entirely my thing, I thought it was cool that I could discover neat gamer resources at the ENnies. I tend to be pretty on top of the online roleplay community, so it's always welcome to discover something new and meet the people involved.

I certainly hope the ENnies can make it even easier for podcasters to participate. I doubt that most judges are overly concerned about receiving a CD, as opposed to a download link, and as a poor man who spends plenty of time volunteering content for various RPG related things I can understand how even small costs can prohibit participation.

Thanks to the judges, who do what they do to make the ENnies as kick butt as possible.

 

[zacharythefirst]

Thanks to C.W. Richeson, whom I will mention every time I see him online as one of the best damned game reviewers on the planet.

 

[fusangite]

I really enjoy listening to podcasts.

Let's be clear. There are some decent podcasts out there but there were not, as of June last year, five worthy of competing for fans' votes.

I certainly hope the ENnies can make it even easier for podcasters to participate.

How is mailing a single CD to someone too much of a hardship? I'm just not getting it. What benefit would come from allowing people to enter who believe that a couple of dollars and a few minutes at the post office is such an excessive hardship that they either (a) believe it violates some "principle; or (b) can't get it together to burn a CD and take it down to the post office in 90 days.

I doubt that most judges are overly concerned about receiving a CD, as opposed to a download link, and as a poor man who spends plenty of time volunteering content for various RPG related things I can understand how even small costs can prohibit participation.

Every CD that is received by the judges produces 15 to 30 person-hours of work (six shows x 30-60 minutes x five judges). You seem very eager to protect the time and resources of those producing the podcasts to the point where you will stand up to argue for saving them five bucks and a couple of minutes at the post office. And yet a judge spending half to a whole workday of volunteer unpaid time adjudicating each CD they receive isn't a concern for you (and that's assuming they only listen to the shows once).

Why are you being so generous with one group of volunteers' time and so stingy with another's?

 

[C.W.Richeson]

How is mailing a single CD to someone too much of a hardship?

Is clicking on a download link too much of a hardship?

Why are you being so generous with one group of volunteers' time and so stingy with another's?

Yikes! I'm not trying to put myself in the line of fire here - I love the ENnies and the podcasters! I just don't understand how a download link uses up more of the judge's time than a CD. Maybe other folk are different, but the first thing I would do with the CD is take the files off on my computer and put them on another device.

 

[Crothian]

Download link does use up a little more time for me as it is faster to transfer something from my CD rom then to download it. I also find CDs easier because then I have something from them I can see away from the computer but I really doubt this are the main reasons.

I think it is more important to know that we have gone through this with publishers in the past with PDF products. It is an entry hurdle and we need something like that in place.

 

[Witz]

Because those are the rules of the awards. They are asking you to incur less cost than anyone else. Everyone else is forced to send them copies of their products that vastly exceed the per-product value of a CD and an envelope. If the award is worth so little to you that it is not worth a few dollars to submit your product, then fine -- don't submit. Leave the awards to people who actually value receiving them.

Most academic journals, publishers and awards organizations keep requirements like this in today's electronic age because they weed out people who lack a real interest in submitting their stuff. They typically lack the personnel to read through piles of spam or vet random incompetent crap submitted on a lark. If the opportunity cost of submitting to an awards process is less than that of photocopying your backside at work, what kind of awards process is it going to be? (In addition, it doesn't hurt to have a procedure that forces podcasters to pick their best five episodes in a totally unequivocal way.)How fortunate that the ENnie awards don't take a position on that "principle" then.It sounds to me like the podcasting community wouldn't really value an awards from the ENnies then. If requiring a demonstration of basic competence and commitment to the process is offensive, perhaps it is best that the awards and podcasters come to a parting of the ways.

Why not have your own awards?Sorry but these objections don't rise to the level of principle.You know: I have little patience for people who hide behind lame environmental rhetoric to make excuses for not having their excrement together.I'm sorry, I was unaware that how hard the product's creator worked was a factor that judges were supposed to evaluate.

The ENnies are designed to reward quality products. They do not and should not give a damn how hard anyone works.It seems to me that a mark of professionalism is the capacity to meet basic criteria, like being capable financially and physically of mailing out 6 CDs. If fulfilling the basic criteria of an organization with which you are trying to interact is beyond you, I can't really see how professional you could be.Podcasters should count themselves lucky that they are being compared to amateurs rather than professionals. Now that a year has passed, let me tell you what I said when I was an ENnies judge last year. I stated that I had listened to the podcasts that were submitted and felt that the category should be removed, that not enough podcasts were up to the standards of the co-op radio show my friends did when they were in high school.

Your category shouldn't even exist. The fact that only a tiny minority of podcasters were capable of amassing the resources to mail out six CDs only confirms the conclusions I reached last year. You people don't want to be up against individuals capable of utilizing postal outlets and stationery stores competently. They'd blow you out of the water.You would have no choice. If you couldn't afford stamps, my guess is that long distance fees would be out of your reach.Well, then you would have realized that because the judges reserve the right to reorder the categories so as to guarantee that every product submitted is considered, I guess you would never have signed the agreement necessary to enter the awards.The process is brand new. Last year, the judges were forced to comb through dozens of podcasts per nominee. So they changed the procedure so as to force those submitting to select which podcasts they wanted to be judged on.

How nice that an added benefit of this was that people who lack the elementary competence needed to place something in a mailbox with correct postage could be eliminated in the process!Nice that you're ending on a complimentary note after your litany of complaints.

But I'm afraid your olive branch here only further annoys me. We made bad decisions last year. We should never have let the category go to a vote. And we should never have let the disgraced cheaters fillibuster the awards ceremony (disguised as an awards presentation).

Mods - some of the folks in this thread have expressed their opinions, but the tone and personal insults that Fusangite has posted in post #42 is unacceptable (or at least it is supposed to be based on the posting rules of the forums).

In the interest of moderating consistantly - please do something about this.

 

[Crothian]

Mods - some of the folks in this thread have expressed their opinions, but the tone and personal insults that Fungasite has posted in post #42 is unacceptable (or at least it is supposed to be based on the posting rules of the forums).

In the interest of moderating consistantly - you need to do something about this.

There is a report the post button, it looks like a triangle in the bottom left (I think) of each post. You need to use that. The mods do not read every single thread nor do they read every single post in the threads they read. It is very possible that a mod would not see your post,

 

[Witz]

There is a report the post button, it looks like a triangle in the bottom left (I think) of each post. You need to use that. The mods do not read every single thread nor do they read every single post in the threads they read. It is very possible that a mod would not see your post,

Thanks Crothian. Wasn't sure if that was overkill since mods have been posting in this very thread, but I have done so as well. I can understand Fusangite's frustration, but the personal attacks are not warranted regardless of the poster and his (or her) affliation with an event.

Thanks again.