Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Turning

[Garnfellow]

In limited use, I really liked how the positive energy channeling worked for the PCs, but I do see it as a significantly asymmetrical ability next to negative energy channeling. Negative energy affects living creatures, right? And while there are lots of undead in D&D, they are (normally) outnumbered by living creatures. Meaning an evil cleric has many more opportunities to use this ability to nuke opponents than does a good one.

And at low levels, if you compare negative channeling to any other spell, it's a pretty powerful ability.

[Savage Tide Spoilers, Ahoy!]


I was running the first installment of Savage Tide, which has a segment in an undead haunted dungeon. The boss monster is a huecuva cleric. I only have 3 players, and this is a pretty tough episode. The PCs included a 1st level cleric, and the new turning rules kicked ass for the PCs -- but when it came time to run the huecuva, I didn't use his negative channeling. This ability would have completely tipped the balance against the PCs, definitely killing the wizard and probably the fighter, as well. As it was it was a tough fight that the PCs barely survived.

 

[Roman]

its also worth noting that in the playtesting i've done, every cleric took extra channeling and relatively high charisma to get the maximum benefit from the channeling mechanic

You are correct that clerics start concentrating on Channeling Energy heavily, but only three players played clerics in the campaigns I DM since I introduced that change, so to be fair that is not a statistically significant sample yet. There have been more clerics since then, but I have transitioned to my modification of the mechanic (where Channeling healing/damage is based on the Cure spells of the appropriate level).

 

[Phlebas]

You are correct that clerics start concentrating on Channeling Energy heavily, but only three players played clerics in the campaigns I DM since I introduced that change, so to be fair that is not a statistically significant sample yet. There have been more clerics since then, but I have transitioned to my modification of the mechanic (where Channeling healing/damage is based on the Cure spells of the appropriate level).

I went down the route of the vampire spawn evil cleric also taking negative channeling to see if its really 'fair' on the 8th level playtest

(for what is was worth, it didn't really prolong the BBEG life once the monk got within hitting distance, but it did really shake up the players as they took damage every round as well as healing and if I'd had more undead minions it would have made for a really epic battle)

over on the Paizo boards they're discussing wether the cleric should lose spontaneous curing / inflicting as part of the balancing act. thoughts?

 

[Roman]

I went down the route of the vampire spawn evil cleric also taking negative channeling to see if its really 'fair' on the 8th level playtest

(for what is was worth, it didn't really prolong the BBEG life once the monk got within hitting distance, but it did really shake up the players as they took damage every round as well as healing and if I'd had more undead minions it would have made for a really epic battle)

I have also used an undead priest with Negative Energy Channeling against the players, but he didn't have any other undead with him to bolster with his Channeling and thus proved no match to the Positive Energy Channeling party. My new channeling rules based on CW/IW spells of the appropriate level are tamer, so the situation of the players being subjected to that is not going to be as deadly.

over on the Paizo boards they're discussing wether the cleric should lose spontaneous curing / inflicting as part of the balancing act. thoughts?

I was considering this for a while too, but eventually decided that it would be a bad idea. The problem with Energy Channeling is not the total amount of healing it can do - that merely helps to extend the adventuring day. Rather the problem is the damage it can heal per round to all people in a large area and at the same time inflicting the same amount of damage on undead in the area - both of which far outpace the what can be done with Cure/Inflict spells of the appropriate level.

 

[Phlebas]

................

The problem with Energy Channeling is not the total amount of healing it can do - that merely helps to extend the adventuring day. Rather the problem is the damage it can heal per round to all people in a large area and at the same time inflicting the same amount of damage on undead in the area - both of which far outpace the what can be done with Cure/Inflict spells of the appropriate level.

This worries me more for the concept of BBEG undead more than minions. it seriously changes their life expectancy unless you use negative energy back, which becomes a little stale.

Some options i've considered.

Maximise HP for BBEG undead to counter the channeling (keeps the other abilities level)

Positive / negative energy protection amulets

negative / positive energy producing items

giving all intelligent undead resistance (HD) to positive energy

The mass healing element doesn't worry me too much, in the playtests you tended to see Priests channeling instead of running in and healing wounded PC's. Quite often the channeling was wasted on half the PC's, but the ones in the front line got small boosts rather than one large boost.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

What do you guys and gals thing about the Pathfinder version of Turn Undead?

I really like the idea, though I would cut it back to 1d6 plus 1d6 per 3 cleric levels. 1d6 at 1st level. 2d6 at 3rd. 3d6 at 6th.

11d6 at 20th (per the PfRPG pdf) is too much. 7d6 would be more to my liking. And, it would still be more powerful than Mass Cure Critical Wounds.

And, there's nothing wrong with introducing feats to increase the number of dice, either (since it is still limited in the number of times per day it can be used). That way, certain characters could really focus on channelling divine energy, but not all would automatically get as good.

This is the variant I'll probably be using.

 

[Roman]

This worries me more for the concept of BBEG undead more than minions. it seriously changes their life expectancy unless you use negative energy back, which becomes a little stale.

Most definitely - lone undead BBEGs suffer particularly badly in this regard.

 

[Roman]

Wulf, as to your bug vs. feature question regarding CR/HD discrepancy in turning effectiveness, I am not sure which it is, but I agree with you that it is more likely to be a bug. Nonetheless, it is a bug that does not bug me (pun intended), so to speak. I don't think it is a problem that - and for those that do find it problematic, a solution might be to give turn resistance to the high CR low HD undead rather than changing the underlying mechanics to affect CR rather than HD.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't think it is a problem that - and for those that do find it problematic, a solution might be to give turn resistance to the high CR low HD undead rather than changing the underlying mechanics to affect CR rather than HD.

The easiest fix within Pathfinder is to double the damage against non-intelligent undead.

 

[DM_Jeff]

What do you guys and gals thing about the Pathfinder version of Turn Undead? Personally, I adore it and have already implemented it in a game I run. So far, everybody is happy with it.

We tried it as an experiment in my FR campaign, and it instantly met with approval.

-DM Jeff