official revision to skill challenge system

[Mistwell]

Is it just me, or by those numbers is the new system horribly swingy?

I mean, say you have an average check of +8 at level 2. 97% to complete a complexity 5 challenge. A "hard" challenge (meaning you bump up the moderate DC to 12) would be like 65%...

But if you have an average untrained check of say... +3 (level 2 remember) and slid the average of trained versus untrained towards trained, let's go with +6 being the average check... a 28% percent chance!?

All I can say is if you aren't trained in a skill, don't you dare Fing participate.

I've looked at this for all of an hour and I can't comprehend how they thought this was an improvement. Can someone please tell me what I'm not seeing?

It's an improvement. Now, parties can win a skill challenge. Before, they really could not. It's not a perfect situation, but it's better.

 

[Xorn]

It's an improvement. Now, parties can win a skill challenge. Before, they really could not. It's not a perfect situation, but it's better.

I'll agree that it's better as long as I can qualify that I think it's the same level of improvement as being forced to drink a glass of your own spit instead of a stranger's is an improvement.

So before, it was really hard to beat a skill challenge (especially simpler ones) because the DCs were really too high.

Now, it's either stupidly easy to beat a skill challenge, or almost impossible if anyone not trained in applicable skills tries. Plus, the bigger a skill challenge is, the faster you approach the abyssal shelf of failure. With the "opt out" scenario, rolling without being trained in the applicable skill isn't just sub-optimal, it's stupidity.

I think I'll stick with the old system, just dropping the base DCs by 5.

 

[Chowder]

Now, it's either stupidly easy to beat a skill challenge, or almost impossible if anyone not trained in applicable skills tries. Plus, the bigger a skill challenge is, the faster you approach the abyssal shelf of failure. With the "opt out" scenario, rolling without being trained in the applicable skill isn't just sub-optimal, it's stupidity.

I'd like to see WotC clarify the new rules in an article. As they're written, they appear to be excessively swingy. I'm surprised that after realizing that the RAW were broken, and taking some time to prepare a response, they came up with something that's demonstrably worse than what people here at ENWorld had proposed in the interim.

In my opinion, they should modify the errata again. I realize that doing so would be particularly embarrassing, but it would be very sad to go through the entire lifetime of fourth edition with all skill challenges in official products being broken.

-Chowder

 

[Anthony Jackson]

It is slightly frustrating we are back to the 'everyone sit on their hands/roll stupid aid another actions while the face guy does all the talking.' model of doing things. I thought the idea was not to be there.

It's an artifact of the fact that everyone's failures count. If you want everyone trying, you either have to count failures separately for each player, or you have to ignore failure counts and make it a timed challenge (i.e. get X successes in Y rounds).

 

[drothgery]

To expand on what JGulick did, here's a look at level 1. Remember that under the new system up to two players can use Aid Another to assist a third player with a higher skill, so a level 1 you're getting up to +16 to your skill check.

5 (trained) + 5 (20 in a stat) + 3 (skill focus) + 2 (racial skill bonus) + 4 (two aid anothers) = +19 (not very likely, except possibly for an Eladrin wizard and Arcana, but possible)

 

[Mistwell]

I'll agree that it's better as long as I can qualify that I think it's the same level of improvement as being forced to drink a glass of your own spit instead of a stranger's is an improvement.

Only if you will agree you are fond of hyperbole, and that you're using said fondness in this thread.

 

[ac_noj]

5 (trained) + 5 (20 in a stat) + 3 (skill focus) + 2 (racial skill bonus) + 4 (two aid anothers) = +19 (not very likely, except possibly for an Eladrin wizard and Arcana, but possible)

There's actually a whole host of stat bonuses that line up with skill bonuses, but you're right I didn't count the +3 from Skill Focus.

If you're interested, here's the races that can hit +19 at level 1:
Dragonborn - Intimidate
Dwarf - Endurance
Eladrin - Arcana and History
Elf - Perception and Nature
Half-Elf - Diplomacy
Halfling - Acrobatics and Thievery
Tiefling - Bluff

 

[MarkB]

I don't have the maths for this, but what happens if you bump the DCs back up a bit, but only count a serious failure (failure by 5 or more) as a failure, with a simple failure counting toward neither overall success nor overall failure?

Would that make things more swingy, less, or just the same?

 

[Xorn]

Only if you will agree you are fond of hyperbole, and that you're using said fondness in this thread.

Agreed. I would hope no one read what I posted as "I think it's an improvement", as it was meant to illustrate how little I care a complete revision of the printed rules that results in rules that suck, just the other direction.

I should have been clearer, I guess. If I have to qualify an improvement by saying "technically, it's an improvement" then I don't consider it worth revising in the first place. I felt that my metaphor was a striking example of the level of improvement I considered it. I apologize if the humor was lost on you though.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Better, but they need to try again, and fast, before they publish it in errated books. (Well, they have already provided a new table to cut and paste--which is a great move--but the system still needs work and I hope they are willing to continue to fix it.)

IMHO:
1) The pendulum swung too far and now the DCs are too low.
2) Letting characters opt to not participate defeats a major purpose of the challenge. (For that matter, I don't think Aid Another is appropriate for skill challenges.)

While I have only read it, I think Stalker0 nailed the correct way to do a skill challenge in his Obsidian system. Every character makes the same number of checks. The # of failures doesn't matter, instead the total number of successes determines the overall level of success.

WotC would do well to adopt that system (or at least the framework) and give him credit (just like they credited the dude who owns the 'Shadowfell' website.)

WotC... (assuming you are reading this thread) please continue to fix the skill challenge system! As it stands, all it does is set a low DC for the best skilled character to achieve X successes before 3 failures. It is no longer a party challenge system.