New class of spell (PEACH)

[dmcallis]

It seems to me there is room for a new class of spell which would fit between the existing spells and the existing rituals of 4e.

I'd like to use the term "Rite" but that is already used in the PHB in another connotation, so I'll use the term "Pattern" for this new mechanic.

A pattern would be that class of magic which requires a material component (and a cost) but require much less time that a ritual would take to perform and more than a single round in many cases. This would make them usable on the battlefield but at a cost.

To stick to the existing mechanics and philosophy of "the less record keeping the better" They could use the existing "save" mechanic, with modifiers so it isn't neccessarially a "10 or better" chance to complete the pattern in a given round.

They could be more powerful than spells, though not neccessarially since one strength is they could be cast from a book, allowing the wizard of whoever greater flexability (not having to be readied at the beginning of the day) at the risk of losing the casting if botched (on a natural 1 on the "cast check) or if interrupted (a concentration check as in an OA while spell casting) and cost.

I'm going to develop this idea and use it in my campaign, but I thought I would ask for a PEACH here and also share the idea with anyone who might like to steal/help develop the idea.

Is the idea balanced and/or worthwhile developing in your opinion?

Thanks

 

[infax]

The idea seems interesting, dmcallis. I can see the place in the mechanics now that you pointed it out. "Variable casting time with chance of botching" seems to be a resource management format that hasn't been explored yet.

I didn't see, however, what kind of effect you intend your "Patterns" to have. Do you have a situation imagined? Something to inspire those considering that mechanic?

(what do you mean by "PEACH"? English is not my primary language and I'm unfamiliar with the term.)

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

(what do you mean by "PEACH"? English is not my primary language and I'm unfamiliar with the term.)

PEACH stands for Please Examine And Critique Honestly--shorthand on several forums for "This isn't in a complete form, I need some help developing it."

As for the effect type, I'm guessing stuff that could be rituals but cost way too much time/money for the effect. For instance: knock is a ritual, but it's way too expensive and takes way too long for something that any rogue with maxed Thievery could manage. That would be a good Pattern: doesn't fit the utility power mold, not big and powerful/flashy enough for a ritual.

 

[infax]

PEACH stands for Please Examine And Critique Honestly--shorthand on several forums for "This isn't in a complete form, I need some help developing it."

Thanks a lot for the explanation, Eldritch_Lord.

I understand what you expect out of rituals. I wouldn't agree, though. I think Knock is just dandy as it is in the form of a ritual. I, especifically, don't want another character replacing a Thievery with just the Arcana skill and a couple of rounds. I prefer that the alternative to having invested in an aspect of character development to be expensive and time consumming.

I wonder if the OP expects to use Patterns to substitute some rituals as you do.

 

[dmcallis]

Thanks a lot for the explanation, Eldritch_Lord.

I understand what you expect out of rituals. I wouldn't agree, though. I think Knock is just dandy as it is in the form of a ritual. I, especifically, don't want another character replacing a Thievery with just the Arcana skill and a couple of rounds. I prefer that the alternative to having invested in an aspect of character development to be expensive and time consumming.

I wonder if the OP expects to use Patterns to substitute some rituals as you do.

Actually, Knock was exactly one of the things which led to this idea.

The situation:
The party has bitten off much more than they can handle (opened two doors when they should have opened only one, perhaps) and the door they came through to get into the mess clicked locked behind them.
This kind of thing is what Knock was originally designed for. I agree completely it should no longer be a spell, but as a ritual it is totally useless in an emergency situation like this.
But as a Pattern (anyone have a better suggestion for a name? I can live with Pattern, but there may be a better term I'm not seeing...) it gives them a chance for an heroic escape.
Also keep in mind I'm not really targeting Wizards, can't anyone cast Rituals (and thus Patterns) with the proper training (skill)? So the Wizard could be disrupting the enemy while someone else uses a pattern to get the door open, again, at a cost.

Maybe I should make a list of those old spells which have disappeared which could be Patterns... There are plenty which are out there.

In short Patterns are those old spells which are useful in combat but which shouldn't really be six-second spells...
I personally think this could add a new dynamic to the game without breaking anything, if developed properly.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Not only can any character learn and cast a ritual with a good enough skill modifier, chances are you can just bash the door down faster than it takes to cast knock, and it's definitely cheaper.

In terms of a new name, I'd suggest Incantation. It's basically a 3e version of rituals, so you might as well give Patterns a similar name.

 

[dmcallis]

Not only can any character learn and cast a ritual with a good enough skill modifier, chances are you can just bash the door down faster than it takes to cast knock, and it's definitely cheaper.

In terms of a new name, I'd suggest Incantation. It's basically a 3e version of rituals, so you might as well give Patterns a similar name.

But if you are in the mess described, wouldn't it be nice to have the door to put between you and whatever is trying to get at you after you get through it?

MUCH better name. Incantation it is.

 

[dmcallis]

I think a way to further differentiate Incantations from Rituals would be a further cost. It would also further limit wanton use of incantations to a reasonable level I think.
The further cost would be a healing surge. Plus perhaps another lost surge on a botch, to compound the loss of the casting. (So if you botch, you'd lose the time, the components, and two surges.)

If you do not have the surges, in either case, you lose HPs equal to your surge value.

That should balance things nicely. You'd only use incantations when you REALLY need them.

This would also let us use some existing rituals as incantations also.
If you have the time, you use the ritual. If you really need it SOON, make the sacrifice and use the incantation.

I'd also keep them separate as far as learning and recording in your books. There would be a separate Ritual of Knock and an Incantation of Knock available. Knowing one does not give you the other. You have to learn them separately.

 

[infax]

Actually, Knock was exactly one of the things which led to this idea.

<snip>

Maybe I should make a list of those old spells which have disappeared which could be Patterns... There are plenty which are out there.

In short Patterns are those old spells which are useful in combat but which shouldn't really be six-second spells...
I personally think this could add a new dynamic to the game without breaking anything, if developed properly.

Ok. Fair enough. I, personally, have a distaste for spells that make another character's abilities irrelevant and have long harbored a dislike for knock in particular. I actually like that the current version requires as much time and as much resources as it does.

In the scene suggested by dmcallis, what would a party without a rogue and without the Knock "Incantation"? They would cope. They would find another way. Or they would die. In any event, I don't think the availability of the Knock spell for that particular situation justifies the numerous other times I could see it making the training in Thievery to be less than relevant. So, I'm really not interested in having Knock as a faster, less expensive version than the current Ritual.

Still, I would like to check whatever else you try to convert to Patterns.


Cheers.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

But if you are in the mess described, wouldn't it be nice to have the door to put between you and whatever is trying to get at you after you get through it?

MUCH better name. Incantation it is.

My point was that it's not a matter of "only the rogue or wizard can do it." If there's no rogue in the group, and no character with Thievery, and no caster with knock, the party can just bash the door down. It's not a question of overshadowing the rogue anymore, since everyone can take Thievery, so infax's fears are mostly unfounded.

In terms of cost, I don't think a monetary cost is required; the only reason rituals have a long casting time is to prevent them being used in combat, and then they have a large cost to prevent them from being used too often. Since you already want them to be used in combat, there wouldn't be a concern about them being usable too often, since any encounter power can be used as often or more often.

So you don't need a monetary cost or a long casting time; what you need is a danger cost: something that would make it dangerous to use it in combat, whether from a status condition or loss of health. I'd suggest that it cost a single healing surge when you start to cast it, and every botch dazes you for a round. You wouldn't care outside of combat, just try longer, but if you need to knock that door open now because monsters are chasing you, a round daze