paladin divine challenge at the end of a turn?

[Anthony Jackson]

'Attacked the target on my turn' is a current status, until the end of my turn rolls by.

Sure, but that's not what DC says.

 

[Maxim Machinery]

Sure, but that's not what DC says.

...

It's exactly what it says. 'On your turn, you must engage the target, or challenge a new one.' Paraphrasing: 'to engage a target, you must attack it, or end your turn adjacent to it.'

So, on my turn, I have attacked the target. I now DC it, still during the same turn. End of turn rolls around, check: on my turn, did I engage the target of my current DC? Well, I attacked it on my turn, and that qualifies as engaging, so yes, on my turn I engaged that target. DC persists.

If you can show me, via a logical application of the rules, step by step, why your interpretation holds more weight than mine, I will be interested to see it. So far, the evidence to support your case amounts to "that's no' how ye make porridge" (I really hope that reference isn't too obscure).

 

[Crosswind]

Then the new target becomes 'The target you challenged.' A new condition kicks in and says you must either engage that target, or challenge a new one. You -can't- because you can only challenge once per turn, so the challenge drops. Challenging a new target will satisfy the -old- challenge, but the -new- challenge is a new application of the ability and is applied seperately.

Are we really that unfamiliar with the logical "or"? "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged, or challenge a different target".

One or the other. Not both. Let's take your example.

You DC the Goblin. The Kobold is un-DC'd automatically.
Now, let's ask: "Have I engaged the target I challenged"? No.
"Have I challenged a different target?" Yes.

"Has 'none of these events' occurred?" No. One of them occurred - challenging a different target.

Therefore, I don't lose my divine challenge next round.

How is this at all hard?

-Cross

 

[mlangsdorf]

But for the Goblin, you neither engaged it on your turn or challenged a different target. The Kobold is irrelevant for this example.

The target of the Divine Challenge is the Goblin. At the end your turn, you check to see if you engaged the target you challenged (no) or ended your turn next to it (no). The Divine Challenge fails and can't be used on the next turn.

 

[Dracollich]

But for the Goblin, you neither engaged it on your turn or challenged a different target. The Kobold is irrelevant for this example.

Ah, but I believe the Kobold is key to this example. On your turn (which means any point in the turn) you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. When the goblin is challenged, a challenge to a new target has been issued during the turn since the Kobold was the recipient of the challenge prior to the goblin.

 

[KarinsDad]

On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

Possibilities:

1) Challenge target, attack or move adjacent to target, target is still challenged after the turn.

2) Attack target, challenge target, target not adjacent, the challenge ends at the end of the turn. The reason is the phrase "must engage" is not a past tense phrase, but "challenged" is past tense. The phrase is not "must have engaged this turn", it's "must engage".

3) Attack target, challenge target, target adjacent, the challenge continues into the next turn. Unlike the previous scenario (#2), the non-past tense "must engage" phrase is satisfied since the Paladin is engaging after challenging.


The challenge must occur before the engaging or the power fails at the end of the turn.


Now, the phrase "or challenge a different target" could supercede this (as people here have claimed) except for a different sentence in the power description:

The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target.

4) At end of turn, challenge a different target. The challenge ends at the end of the turn since "you fail to engage the target" in a non-adjacent case. The target is no longer marked, hence, it is no longer challenged. It works in an adjacent case because the target is engaged.

 

[mlangsdorf]

No, the kobold is irrelevant. He is not the target of the Divine Challenge. You are required either engage your target (aka the Goblin) or challenge a different target or lose the Challenge. You didn't engage the target, nor did you challenge a different target. You lose the Challenge.

 

[Lurker37]

The heart of this argument boils down to one simple question:

"Does the Divine challenge that ended this affect the new Divine challenge started this turn?"

In other words, when you start the turn with target A challenged, and challenge target B, does the challenge on target B work differently than it would if you hadn't had A challenged at the start of the turn?

There is nothing to say that it does, and nothing to say that it doesn't.

One side of this argument says "It's the same power, so the logic continues"

The other says "It's two separate uses of the same power. Their conditions need to be met separately."

So here is the real question, since it could apply to more than just this one power:

"If the same power is somehow used twice in one turn (eg a maintained power is used on a new target), do we treat the two uses of that power as unrelated, or as linked?"

Here's a theoretical example: Let's say a maintained power does one extra point of damage per round it's maintained on a target. If the caster switches to a new target on the third round (and hits), will the new target take damage for round one, or damage for round 3?

Now what would you say if the damage was one LESS per round maintained? If it's different to your previous answer than why has your position changed?

My point is, I think we need an official clarification for how all maintained powers are read when cast on a new target, not just for Divine Challenge.

Personally? I think each new target is a brand new use, that is completely unaffected by the effect previously maintained. By that metric, the newly-targeted damage spell does the damage specified for the first round, and the new target of a Divine Chalenge still needs to be engaged.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

"If the same power is somehow used twice in one turn (eg a maintained power is used on a new target), do we treat the two uses of that power as unrelated, or as linked?"

Not a good example; switching targets with a power is not the same.

In general, every time you take the action required to activate a power, you have created a new power instance. When you take an action to sustain a power, or any other action specified under the power which lets you do something, you have not created a new power instance.

Here's a theoretical example: Let's say a maintained power does one extra point of damage per round it's maintained on a target. If the caster switches to a new target on the third round (and hits), will the new target take damage for round one, or damage for round 3?

Depends on what the power says. A switchable target cumulative damage effect seems improbable.

Now what would you say if the damage was one LESS per round maintained? If it's different to your previous answer than why has your position changed?

Again, depends on what the power states.

My point is, I think we need an official clarification for how all maintained powers are read when cast on a new target, not just for Divine Challenge.

DC is not being maintained on new target -- you're ending the old challenge and creating a new challenge.

 

[pemerton]

I'll weigh in.

* The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below).

*On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target.

* To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent
to it.

*If none of these events (ie engage or challenge new target) occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn.

If you have challenged a new target, but not engaged by the end of your turn, then (pretty clearly) (i) the target would not remain marked because you failed to engage it, and (more controversially, but I think pretty unambiguously) (ii) you would not be able to use divine challenge next turn.

As far as I can seem, the point of saying that "On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target" is not to say that you don't have to engage the new target, but to mean that you don't lose use of the power next turn for failing to remain engaged with the first target. Or, to put it another way, the wording of "or challenge a different target" allows you to change the target you engage from turn to turn.

Without that wording, if you failed to engage an existing target you would lose use of the power next turn even if you used it against, and engaged, a new target.