Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder BETA - Some Sizzle, Not Much Steak

[Jack99]

Metagame is explicitly using out of character knowledge to best effect in game.

Technically, it doesn't matter if he/she/it uses the knowledge to best effect or not. Any use of OOC knowledge is metagaming. Aside from that little thing, you have got it right.

 

[AllisterH]

Technically, it doesn't matter if he/she/it uses the knowledge to best effect or not. Any use of OOC knowledge is metagaming. Aside from that little thing, you have got it right.

Well, technically that's true.

But how many times have you ever seen someone use "OOC knowledge" to sabotage their own character or even NOT get an advantage.

That's the whole point of metagaming is it not?

re: Definition of words
No, You're EXPLICITLY redefining what a term means that has an EXPLICIT meaning.

Saying that the sky is red just because "oh, you know what I mean", is a bogus argument.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's amazing what they can do when you channel their intellect into pursuits other than world domination.

Huh? What do you think my other hobby is?

I suppose we stop this line of thought now, before a mod catches us.

 

[jadrax]

But how many times have you ever seen someone use "OOC knowledge" to sabotage their own character or even NOT get an advantage.

Interestingly, probably more than I have seen them use it to advantage. The amount of farcical sessions I have witnessed where a Character avoids doing something logical because they have played the scenario before is impressive.

But I suppose that is what you get when you play with a lot of honest players who circulate around a lot of different games.

 

[AllisterH]

Interestingly, probably more than I have seen them use it to advantage. The amount of farcical sessions I have witnessed where a Character avoids doing something logical because they have played the scenario before is impressive.

But I suppose that is what you get when you play with a lot of honest players who circulate around a lot of different games.

You know, I actually agree with you here.

I had totally forgotten about how my friends and I react when we play over a D&D module....

So yeah, you're right that metagame thinking CAN be used to stymie your own advantage.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Double post ftw

 

[fuzzlewump]

It is something that is easier to do with older editions of the game than 4E, because the way powers work have a higher level of abstraction ("if I hit this guy I can allow my mates to spend healing surges. If I use this power I pull this guy, while using that one I would block his movement"). You pretty much need to think in terms of rules applications first to then apply it in-game to have winning strategies.

It doesn't really matter whose edition's dad can beat up the other edition's dad, but as far as this point goes, I see no problem in 4E. You say "need" to think in metagame but I say you choose to. Here is your example quote in-game "Once my blade connects with this beast my allies will regain the momentum we need to carry on, but, on the other hand I could trick him (or magically compel? What power is this?) into coming closer to me so that my shady friend can more easily reach his flank. Or, perhaps, I will immobilize him with a swift strike to his lower appendages." What I mean by the dad's comment is sure, we can argue the gap between rules and imagination in 4E for weeks, no matter how small or large the gap really is, but it's not like the gap in 3E was the absolute sweet spot and making it even a tad larger will explode sense of disbelief.

I think once you train your mind once to consider things as in-game, that's all you need. For instance, any time you see the word "push" you literally think of your character extending her arms and hands in a violent motion to... well... push. Not a big deal. Immobilized, blinded, slowed, all have very easy conversions into imagination.

Perhaps healing surges are the trouble. I think healing surges partly represent an extremely important element of battle that wasn't used in 3E: morale. So, spending a healing surge can be two things, tending wounds or increasing morale. A conversion to imagination you only have to do once, right here and now. I understand that you simply may not want to, but for those of us that do and have, 4E is just as much a game for the mind as D&D has ever been.

 

[Rechan]

For instance, any time you see the word "push" you literally think of your character extending her arms and hands in a violent motion to... well... push.

Fights are very fluid things. See boxers for instance. They don't stand still and just punch eachother, they move all around the ring. That's why a "Square" is five feet (or how ever many feet you choose to define them, now); because the combatants are weaving around.

Given that notion of "Combatants aren't cardboard men, they are moving around in their square when fighting", any sort of forced movement constitutes one combatant (or both) moving around.

At least in my mind, "push" constitutes anything that gets the foe from point A to point B away from you. Which it could constitute making them give up ground, getting them to trip up and stumble away, disarming them and they retrieving their weapon, headbutting/shoulder-slamming them and forcing them backwards, or some sort of judo-like move.

 

[blargney the second]

Strategy is the making of plans, while tactics are what you employ in the execution of the strategy. Highway Man, you're right that game rules can have nothing to do with strategy. However, the rules have everything to do with tactics. Your chess knight isn't suddenly going to move along diagonals because that's what he would do in character.
-blarg

 

[blargney the second]

double post, please delete