Pathfinder 1E What is Pathfinder doing about multi-classing?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sadrik, I am interested in this.

It is not evident from your text, but do you intend for the caster to gain access to his higher spell levels with this? Or are you only increasing caster level?

In my opinion anything that unduly delays your access to high level spells is crippling.

So taking for example the case of a Wiz10/Clr10, which of these are you proposing?

1. He casts spells as a Wiz15/Clr15 (10 + ½ the other class levels).
2. He casts spells as a Wiz10/Clr10 but spells take effect at caster level 15.

The first case is satisfactory. The second case is not; there's no way a 20th level character can compete with a 5th level spell "cap."

I think the best thing to try for was going with a universal spell slot system. Caster Levels stacks,in addition, there is a "Spell Capacity Level".

Basically, use the Wizard chart for all characters. Rangers and Paladins get a spell capacity level of +1 per 2 levels, Bards of 3/4 their level, and Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards and Clerics at +1 per level.

Sorcerers get 1 extra spell slot per level gained, that they always distribute to their highest level spell at the level they gain. (This means an 11th level Sorcerer would have 2 more spells for spells up to 5th level, and one extra spell for 6th level spells - remember, we're using a new spell capacity chart, so the SOrcereror no longer has delayed access.).
Wizards get an extra slot for spells of their favored school, Clerics for their domain spells. Druids and Bards get other abilities then bonus spell slot.

Each day, you have to distribute your spell slots across the classes you have.

The next problem is how you deal with learning new spells (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard) or getting access to them (Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Ranger). Maybe you learn only spells by actually gaining levels in that class, and there are feats that let you expend your spell knowledge in one of your classes.
As a variant, you could make "Heighten Spell" an automatic feature - if you slot a spell at a higher level, it is treated as such for Saving Throw DC and ability to break level-related barriers. This reduces the spell cap problem a little bit.

The goal is to start with a unified system for spell slots, and then add the class specific variation.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think the best thing to try for was going with a universal spell slot system. Caster Levels stacks,in addition, there is a "Spell Capacity Level".

Basically, use the Wizard chart for all characters. Rangers and Paladins get a spell capacity level of +1 per 2 levels, Bards of 3/4 their level, and Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards and Clerics at +1 per level.

Sorcerers get 1 extra spell slot per level gained, that they always distribute to their highest level spell at the level they gain. (This means an 11th level Sorcerer would have 2 more spells for spells up to 5th level, and one extra spell for 6th level spells - remember, we're using a new spell capacity chart, so the SOrcereror no longer has delayed access.).
Wizards get an extra slot for spells of their favored school, Clerics for their domain spells. Druids and Bards get other abilities then bonus spell slot.

Each day, you have to distribute your spell slots across the classes you have.

Hello MR, good post as usual-- fine German engineering.

What you've outlined above is almost exactly what I've done (so far) for Trailblazer.

But this is the clincher:

The next problem is how you deal with learning new spells (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard) or getting access to them (Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Ranger). Maybe you learn only spells by actually gaining levels in that class, and there are feats that let you expend your spell knowledge in one of your classes.

You run into problems with, for example, a Wiz/Clr-- both of which classes basically "know" all the spells on their list, all the time.

So let me ask you:

What would the spell list of a Wiz1/Clr19 look like? Can he cast meteor swarm?

What about a Clr1/Wiz19? Can he cast true resurrection?

Those are the two most obvious trouble cases but of course you also run into problems mixing "Known Spell" classes (Bard, Sor) with "Full Access" classes.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hello MR, good post as usual-- fine German engineering.

What you've outlined above is almost exactly what I've done (so far) for Trailblazer.

But this is the clincher:


You run into problems with, for example, a Wiz/Clr-- both of which classes basically "know" all the spells on their list, all the time.

So let me ask you:

What would the spell list of a Wiz1/Clr19 look like? Can he cast meteor swarm?

What about a Clr1/Wiz19? Can he cast true resurrection?

Those are the two most obvious trouble cases but of course you also run into problems mixing "Known Spell" classes (Bard, Sor) with "Full Access" classes.

The easiest way is to say you learn in all classes at the same time. Obviously, this creates a great balance issue - for one Cleric Level, my Wizard can cast Heal, True Ressourection or Miracle? And it's a free choice each day?
Going this route, you need another limitation.
My suggestion would be required spell slots. You have to choose a primary spell casting class. This must be the class you have the highest level in (chose one in case of ties.) At least 2 of your spells per day must be devoted to that class.
Possibly, you also add a secondary class: At least one of your spells per day must be devoted to that class. All other classes can go with less. This greatly limits your versatility across classes.
Still, it doesn't feel like there is much reason to not play a Cleric19/Wizard1 then, instead of a Cleric10/Wizard10. You get better saves, bab and HD, and can still cast the occasional Fireball or Scorching Ray.


The other way is to say that spell knowledge is only based on your actual class level. So a Sorcerer 8/Cleric5 could theoretically cast 7th level spells, but only knows Sorcerer spells up to 4th level, and Cleric spells up to 3rd level. Feats allow you expand this level. A Wizard5/Cleric5 would only get new wizard spells automatically when he levels in Wizard, and despite his spell capacity, he can't learn or prepare spells above 3rd level, nor can he prepare Cleric spells above 3rd level.
Practiced Spellcaster might add +2 to spell capacity (not above HD), caster level (not above HD) and +2 to spell knowledge for one class. Benefits can be stacked. Heighten spell might become a default feature of the magic system instead of a metamagic feat. (slot modification from actual meta-magic feats of course are not resulting in a heightened spell)

A further way is similar to above, but add a small bonus to spells learning for multiclassing - so 2 levels in fighters or clerics would also give +1 spell learning for your Wizard levels.

Or you could try any combination of these ideas. I would try to do something that is easy to manage.

Another issue:
How would you want to deal with Spell Capacity for non-spellcasters? Should a Fighter10/Cleric1 be able to cast with a capacity of 6, while the Fighter 11 doesn't get anything out of his spell capacity of 5?

We don't want to just fix the Cleric/Wizard - we also want to fix the Fighter5/Wizard5, without forgetting the Wizard2/Fighter8, or the Fighter 10 and the Wizard 10.

 

[DaveMage]

If it's not inherently built in, I wonder if making "+1 level of arcane spellcasting class spells" and "+1 level of divine spellcasting class spells" feats might temper the problem. (With a caveat that this feat cannot raise your caster level past your character level - 2.) (Thus, you couldn't be a Wizard 17/Fighter 3 and have an effective Wizard level beyond 18.)

If a Cleric 1/Wizard 19 maxed out their 10-12 feats (Pathfinder), they could essentially be a Wizard 19/Cleric 13 for spellcasting prowess. That seems reasonable.

Or, if that seems unfair to require so many feats, maybe a similar one that allows some of the bonuses talked about above, such as...

Divine Affinity (or whatever)

Prerequisite: Cast 1st level divine spells
Benefit: You gain +1 level of your chosen divine spellcasting class spells for every two levels taken in non-divine classes. Your divine classes stack for the purposes of determining caster level.

 

[Knightfall]

Explain to me how a cleric 2/wizard 3/druid 3/sorcerer 4 is hamstrung.

Hmm, how's this for an option?

The character stacks all his caster levels for all classes, and has access to all the spells from all his or classes. However, he or she only has one set of spells per day and casts his or her spells in them most restrictive manner (least # of spells per day) of all the classes. (This likely wouldn't work to well for the bard, paladin, ranger, etc., but I'm just coming up with this off the top of my head.)

So, the above character would be a 12th-level caster with access to four spell lists but would have to cast ALL of his or her spells as a wizard. The character would only gain 1st and 2nd-level domain spells as he or she is only a 2nd-level cleric.

Another idea mght be that the character casts spells based on the FIRST spellcasting class taken. So, in that case the character would use the spellcasting progression of the cleric.

Anyway, just some ideas. Take 'em with a grain of salt.

 

[Chacal]

Here are some notes I made about mutliclassing. Maybe it can add something to the worthy goal of this thread:

First, some notations:
In the following text, casting ability will be considered as the composition of three factors:

• PL The Power level (sometimes rather ambiguously called Caster Level). This number impacts some spell durations, the number of D6 your firewall does...
• SL The Spellcasting Level, which indicates how many slots of each level you got to use each day.
• KL The Knowledge level, which gives the highest level spell you can know and either the number of known spells (using a table for sorcerers) or the number of bonus known spells (for wizards)

A spellcasting class usually raises the three factors at each level. There are some exception though (in some prestige classes progressions, only PL is increased).In arcana evolved, there's only one PL which is increased by any spellcasting class, but SL (and to a certain extent KL) are kept separately for each class.


Below are house rules (after seeing the thread I realize many have had similar proposals, although expressed in a different framework).
They assume that there isn't a unified spellcasting table and that the existing tables have to be used.


On the treatment of Power Level (PL):
Every class contribute to the global PL but at different rates. For example: every level for "full" spellcasters, every 2 for "half" spellcasters and every 3 for the others.

A wizard 1 fighter 19 casts a magic missile as a level 7 wizard (4d4+4) (not too bad, but not game breaking either).

In order to be fair with non-spellcasters (and to add some fun fatigue option to spellcasters), PL can be converted/burned do get some bonus (they recover each day or at some rate). Examples:

• Bonus save against magic (with conversion rate ? )
• Bonus to recover from dying (stabilizing?)
• additional use of a class ability...

On the treatment of Spellcasting Level (SL):

There is usually one SL per spellcasting class (a wizard 2/Cleric 3 doesn't share its slots). Prestige classes either define their own SL and slot progression or add to an existing SL. (PrC that are trying to fix multiclass spellcasting by raising mutliple SL should be either ignored, using the old system, or converted later).

In addition to their normal progression, classes could contribute to every other spellcasting class progression.
This bonus SL should be increased by every classes but at different rates. For example: every 3 levels for "full" spellcasters, every 4 for "half" spellcasters and every 5 for the others.

Which gives us :
Wiz8/Clrc12 uses the spell slot tables of wiz 12 (8+4) and Cleric 14(12+2)
Wiz 7 clrc 6 Drd 7 uses (Wiz 11 Clrc 10 Drd 11)
Wiz 10/Clrc 10 uses wiz 13 Clr 13
Wiz 16 /Clr 4 uses Wiz 17 Clr 9
all of them use a PL of 20

Now this is beginning to be unfair to the single classed spellcaster.
In order to give the Wiz20 something for its 6 bonus SL points, he can use them as he could use PL (or maybe to fuel metamagic uses)

On the treatment of Knowledge Level (KL):
An easy way to treat the KL is to tie it with the SL and use the previous rules. But as you might have noticed, I didn't exactly choose the easy way

A variant I like is to use a faster progression for KL than for the SL: lvl/2 lvl/3 and lvl/4.
Having a KL higher than its SL is not useless if there is some kind of overcasting system (burning PL as well as several lower level slots, for example) or when using scrolls...

Not so Final notes
I know it's incomplete and quite complicated.
I believe it's complex upon levelling (you have to divide your next class level to make some changes in two or three different ways)
but it doesn't really change anything during play (except adding options to burn PL and SL).


I'd love to simplify and streamline it a bit while keeping the separation between knowledge and capacity, which I found fun.


Chacal

 

[Voadam]

The other way is to say that spell knowledge is only based on your actual class level. So a Sorcerer 8/Cleric5 could theoretically cast 7th level spells, but only knows Sorcerer spells up to 4th level, and Cleric spells up to 3rd level. Feats allow you expand this level. A Wizard5/Cleric5 would only get new wizard spells automatically when he levels in Wizard, and despite his spell capacity, he can't learn or prepare spells above 3rd level, nor can he prepare Cleric spells above 3rd level.

I like this, gaining spell slots on a total multiclassed level basis while only learning spells of the appropriate levels based on levels in that class. This will lead to an appropriate number of high level slots, depth in low level spells known for multiclass spellcasters and high level slots that can be used with lower level spells or metamagicked ones.

 

[warlockwannabe]

Multiclass bad!

I generally only allow multiclassing in rare cases anyway. Reason? It takes a character years of training to make level 1 of whatever class they are. To simply plop the 1st level of another class in simply dosent make sense, Prestige classes are a bit different, as they grow from the class, and im ok with that. I allow multiclassing in long lived characters like elves and maybe dwarves only as an entry character. Otherwise, taking years to learn a new skill would inhibit adventuring!

 

[Aus_Snow]

I generally only allow multiclassing in rare cases anyway. Reason? It takes a character years of training to make level 1 of whatever class they are. To simply plop the 1st level of another class in simply dosent make sense, Prestige classes are a bit different, as they grow from the class, and im ok with that. I allow multiclassing in long lived characters like elves and maybe dwarves only as an entry character. Otherwise, taking years to learn a new skill would inhibit adventuring!

How do you choose to treat prestige classes that can 'grow from' nonmagical classes, yet give the character spellcasting or other supernatural stuff, basically all of a sudden. IOW, what is it about prestige classes that makes you think they are any more 'organic', for want of a better term?

 

[Roman]

I think the multiclassing system in D&D 3.5E is relatively good. Yes, there are issues with it, one of the most notable being with spellcaster multiclassing as many have mentioned in this thread, but changing that fundamentally would require comparatively deep alterations. I think some tinkering around the edges would be sufficient, after all, there are prestige classes that deal with the spellcaster multiclassing issue and they do a decent job at it. Is this a baid aid rather than a systemic solution? Sure, but it is a pretty good band aid, so huge changes to the system are not necessary. In any case, I think some degree of system mastery is good for a game, so not all multiclass combinations without exception need to be highly effective.