Pathfinder 1E What is Pathfinder doing about multi-classing?

[RangerWickett]

Here's a quick draft of the rules text:

Spellcasting
Magic pervades the world, but many traditions for tapping its power exist. While most adventurers either choose one way of spellcasting or none at all, some mix styles of spellcraft, or dabble in these powers to accent their other talents.

[[Sidebar]]Chart 1 - Spells Per Day Progression
This chart looks like the wizard spells per day chart. (Subject to change after playtesting.)
[[End Sidebar]]

Every class provides you with a caster level bonus, the way it provides a base attack bonus.

Poor (+1 per 2 levels): Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
Average (+3 per 4 levels): Bard
Good (+1 per 1 level): Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard

Your caster level determines how many spells you can cast per day, what spell level you have access to, and how powerful your spells are.

If you have levels of more than one spellcasting class, the save DC of your spells is 10 + spell level + the ability score modifier of any ability score that is at least one of those class's core spellcasting ability. Choose whichever is highest.

(Note: I did this to reduce Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD) for multiclass casters. However, I see the potential for abuse, such as with a cleric 1/sorcerer 19, who has an 8 Charisma and gets all the benefit of a high Wisdom. Wisdom is, in my opinion, the strongest mental stat. I'm not sure how to fix this problem yet.)

When you gain a level in a spellcasting class, choose 2 spells from that class's spell list. These spells can be any level you have access to. You cast these spells at any time by spending a spell slot of the appropriate level. You can know spells from multiple classes' spell lists, and you can use your spell slots for any spell you know.

Each class has special rules that influence how its spellcasting functions.

Cleric:
You gain domain powers based on your cleric class level. Level-based effects of those powers, however, use your total caster level.

Channel Energy - Should this be class level or caster level based?

Spontaneous Casting - A cleric gains bonus spells known based on his class level (cure if he channels positive, inflict if negative). He can cast these spells at will, as with his normal spells known.

1st - cure/inflict light wounds
3rd - cure/inflict moderate wounds
5th - cure/inflict serious wounds
7th - cure/inflict serious wounds
9th - mass cure/inflict light wounds
11th - mass cure/inflict moderate wounds
13th - mass cure/inflict serious wounds
15th - mass cure/inflict critical wounds

Ritual Prayer - You can spend a minute in prayer to fill a spell slot with any spell of the appropriate level from the cleric class list. That slot can only be used to cast the chosen spell. You can use this ability once per day per class level.


Druid:
Spontaneous Casting - Like cleric, but for summon nature's ally.

Ritual Prayer - As cleric, but for the druid spell list.


Paladin:
Paladins only learn 1 spell per level, not 2, and only if their caster level is at least 1.

(I suggest we bundle the paladin spell list into the cleric spell list, and just let paladins pick spells as clerics. Otherwise, we have the slight issue of a sorcerer 6/paladin 2 taking holy sword, and being able to have a +5 sword at 8th level. Or I guess we could just revise the holy sword spell. Either way, paladin spellcasting is crap, and could use a boost.)


Ranger:
Rangers only learn 1 spell per level, not 2, and only if their caster level is at least 1.

(Likewise, I sorta feel rangers could just use the druid spell list. I don't think it's necessary for either paladins or rangers to get 'ritual casting.')


Sorcerer:
Inner Power: Sorcerers gain extra spell slots based on their class level.

(There'd be a chart showing that at 1st level, sorcerers get 2 bonus 1st level spell slots. At 3rd level they get 2 bonus 2nd level spell slots. At 5th it's 3rd level slots, at 7th it's 4th, etc. Basically this gets them up to the number of spell slots they normally would have.)


Wizard:
In addition to the spells you know and can cast at will, you can acquire new spells in a spell book.

Arcane Ritual: You can spend a minute in study over your spell book to fill a spell slot with any spell of the appropriate level you have in that spell book. That slot can only be used to cast the chosen spell. You can use this ability once per day per class level.



How does this sound?

 

[Voadam]

I realize the problem is that if you're a Ftr 19/Wiz 1, sure, you only know 2 spells, but you've got all the spell slots of a 20th level caster. Now, if you pick 2 9th level spells, you can only cast, like, 4 or 5 of those. But if you pick, say, magic missile and fireball, you've got a ridiculous amount of evocation power. If you'd grabbed maximize spell, you can still be fairly impressive.

My quick solution is to limit spells known to the level in the class and not character level while spell slots go up by spell level. A Ftr 19/Wiz 1 can cast magic missile all day long and with feats get in a couple quickened maximized magic missiles as well.

A cleric 10/Wizard 10 using quickened cones of cold or righteous might but not being able to cast wish or miracle feels fine to me.

The default of picking at 20th character level though and being limited to your two ninth level spells mirrors a fantasy literary character extremely well, Dilvish the Damned by Roger Zelazny. An extremely competent warrior cursed to hell where he struggled and thrived and eventually learned some specific world shattering spells but could not do lesser magics.

 

[Kerrick]

Okay, so we want to use a unified caster level progression, but have enough distinctions within each class that it affects how you cast spells. Everyone knows two spells per level in a casting class, and they can spend 10 minutes performing a ritual to cast another spell from their list, at the cost of expending a slot of the appropriate level.

Interesting idea. How would the rituals work, exactly? I'm going to include ritual rules (already written) into Project Phoenix, so this would fit well. Is it similar to Rary's mnemonic enhancer, where you cast the ritual and you just swap spells? And what if you want to do multiple spells? I think you could do, say, up to your caster level in spell levels, or twice your spellcasting ability mod in levels - I mean, if you're going to blow a ritual, let's make it worthwhile.

Sorcerers, for instance, wouldn't get the 'Ritual Casting' ability, but as they advanced they could maybe get bonus spell slots, which could only be used for sorcerer spells.

Definitely. I don't see sorcerers being able to cast (or participate in) rituals.

Wizards, by contrast, could pull off ritual casting the fastest. He just needs a spell-book and the necessary power components, and he can cast a spell out of his book in two rounds (as a rough example; playtesting could change this). Normal ritual casting takes 10 minutes. In addition, the wizard has spells known that he can cast at will (just like the 3.5 sorcerer can), but he also has the option to prepare spells out of a spell-book.

At-will cantrips, or spells of any level? Don't forget Spell Mastery already allows them to prep some spells as SLAs.

Clerics get bonus spell slots which they can only use for their domain spells.

Cool.

Druids don't get any special rules for casting.

Nor do they need any. I'm not sure why they get more spells than wizards.

Bards need to have their spell list switched to the 0-9 spell levels everyone uses, and they get only 1 spell per level.

Eh... I'm not sure about this. Bards aren't intended to be full casters; they're a "jack of all trades" class - a little spellcasting, a little song, a little rogue, a little fighter... bards can be very effective if done properly. Also, adepts have the same progression.

Classes without spellcasting . . . hm.

I realize the problem is that if you're a Ftr 19/Wiz 1, sure, you only know 2 spells, but you've got all the spell slots of a 20th level caster. Now, if you pick 2 9th level spells, you can only cast, like, 4 or 5 of those. But if you pick, say, magic missile and fireball, you've got a ridiculous amount of evocation power. If you'd grabbed maximize spell, you can still be fairly impressive.

So here's the easy solution. Normal classes just provide 1/2 normal caster level progression, and you obviously don't get any spells known when you take a level in a non-casting class. So the Ftr 19/Wiz 1 has a caster level of 10. Yes, he can know any two spells of levels 0 through 5, and yes, he can cast them a lot. But that's really not overpowering at 20th level, is it?

Why not steal some of the UA rules, and/or institute a cap? A Ftr 19/Wiz 1 is obviously going to be more of a fighting-type character than a spellcaster; his spells will be supplemental at best. So we give him, say, 1/3 of the fighter levels toward his caster level (so he's casting spells as a Wiz 7, but he doesn't get any new spells). If you want to give him some actual levels, take half of those and apply them to his level (so he could gain 2nd level spells).

The main problem I can see is that people would dip into spellcaster classes just for a couple levels of spells - take, say, 2 levels of wizard or cleric and 10-12 levels of anything else, and you're set - you can cast buff spells, magic missile, fireball, whatever.

I still need to figure out how to keep Ftr 19/Wiz 1 from abusing rituals, and how to handle half-caster classes, but I think this is a start. What do you think?

Just make the rituals have a minimum caster level (or better yet, make them actual spells, like mnemonic enhancer). A L1 anything shouldn't need to swap out spells - he doesn't get that many to begin with, and L1s shouldn't go through more than a couple encounters per day anyway.

 

[Voadam]

When you gain a level in a spellcasting class, choose 2 spells from that class's spell list. These spells can be any level you have access to. You cast these spells at any time by spending a spell slot of the appropriate level. You can know spells from multiple classes' spell lists, and you can use your spell slots for any spell you know.

This makes the point at which you multiclass a significant issue for how characters end up.

A wizard 1 who takes 19 levels of druid will know two first level wizard spells he can use with his 20 levels of spellcasting. Say magic missile and mage armor.

A druid 19 who then takes 1 level of wizard will also know two wizard spells, but one of them could be wish and the other permanency or greater teleport or whatever.

This would reward creating high level characters on the spot over ones that have progressed up through levels.

Ritual Prayer - You can spend a minute in prayer to fill a spell slot with any spell of the appropriate level from the cleric class list. That slot can only be used to cast the chosen spell. You can use this ability once per day per class level.



Arcane Ritual: You can spend a minute in study over your spell book to fill a spell slot with any spell of the appropriate level you have in that spell book. That slot can only be used to cast the chosen spell. You can use this ability once per day per class level.



How does this sound?

Core clerics can change their spells once per day to anything on their list. Now they can do it (for single spells) up to their class level times per day in between encounters.

This exacerbates an issue of clerics, you have to be ready to deal with the whole spell list on any given day in D&D. Now you have to be ready after every encounter.

I consider having access to the whole spell list all the time a drag for the DM to anticipate the cleric's powers and a slow down in forcing the spell prep step.

I'd anticipate a lot of spell list checking mid adventure to take advantage of this feature.

I much prefer the UA spontaneous divine caster variant where clerics and druids get sorcerer spells known chart plus domains/animal summoning, their own class spell slots, and spontaneous casting. They can still use their full lists through scrolls and wands and staves, but it is limited and not unlimited access.

 

[Voadam]

A further radicalization is to give non casters something to do with spell slots so they progress similarly to casters. Something abstract but thematically appropriate like mini self healing surges based on spell slot level or some sort of action point type option for spell slots.

This has the downside of making everybody track spell slot mechanics.

I'm also not sure how it would work with caster types who don't use slots such as warlocks, dragonfire adepts, and technological savants (from Fantastic Science).

 

[RangerWickett]

Okay, quick change to the ritual casting thing. Instead of changing spells once per day (as per 3.5) or changing spells every time you have down-time (as per the earlier version of this rule idea), you can spend ten minutes to cast a spell if it's not prepared, by using a spell slot of the appropriate level, and spending X amount of gold in ritual components. It'd be akin to half the cost a scroll of that spell.

So you have the spells you know, which you can cast at will, and you can cast other spells by spending some money. The gp cost is in there to avoid the rather ridiculous problem of casters being able to always pull the perfect spell out of their ass. Yes, the cleric could use find traps, but it's just cheaper and faster to let the rogue do it.

I would like to get this idea polished so we can show it off to the Paizo folks.

 

[Greg K]

For spellcasters, I wish they would just take an approach used by Elements of Magic:Mythic Earth or Elements of Magic: Revised and go with a skill and feat system. Everyone gets feats and everyone gets skill points.

 

[RangerWickett]

In my opinion (and I wrote the damned thing), Mythic Earth was broken. There was very little reason not to be a magic-user. So the concept can work, but the implementation would need a lot of changing.