Pathfinder 1E Lisa Stevens, CEO of Paizo, commenting about ENWorld
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The Little Raven
First Post
News flash for you, Darrin: the internet has been full of threads talking about the broken aspects of 3.X since the year 2000. Suggesting that people suddenly began to see it's flaws because they're just WotC sheep is both insulting to those people you are painting with that broad brush, as well as highly ignorant of threads in this very forum from just a year ago.
Is your intent solely to insult anyone who actually likes 4e, while creating ridiculously exaggerated hyperbole to put in the mouths of those people? Because that's exactly what you seem to be aiming for, and twisting the knife with every further post in which you can add another way of insulting their intelligence... first they like a game that has been dumbed down, and now they're just sheep who don't actually like what they claim to like, but only like what the big bad evil WotC told them to like). Is that why you're ignoring points about how you could phrase things in an actually polite manner, as suggested by Barastrondo? Or why you're ignoring the fact that 3e can just be called a dumbed down version of AD&D, since the players of it obviously can't do the basic math required to figure out the Thac0/AC relationship?
Herremann the Wise
First Post
Calling a spade a spade is fine. Doing it with a complete lack of respect is different. Why are you (a professional wordsmith) quoting the dictionary at people as some sort of defence when the denotation and connotation of "Dumbed Down" is obvious to everyone? If you want to play with words, you could call it elegant or streamlined or simplified or novice-friendly depending upon your opinion of it. Calling it "dumbed down" just comes off as a none-too-subtle attempt to upset people who like what you apparently don't.If you have an axe to grind do you have to do it so publically and repititively.
If you really wish to call a spade a spade, then what is your agenda?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Do you actually think that telling people that the game they prefer is intellectually less sophisticated than your preferred version is not easy to read as an insult?
You are not calling a spade a spade, you are expressing a personal opinion about the game. Thus you should take care to phrase it so that you do not offend if you are interested in a civil debate. Otherwise you are risking someone replying in kind resulting in threads drowning in the unfriendly tone discussed here.
You are not calling a spade a spade, you are expressing a personal opinion about the game. Thus you should take care to phrase it so that you do not offend if you are interested in a civil debate. Otherwise you are risking someone replying in kind resulting in threads drowning in the unfriendly tone discussed here.
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Darrin Drader
Explorer
You won't have to look far to find the examples you seek. They're all over the place.
My ultimate goal, as I said before, is to express the reason why I'm not around as much anymore. As I stated earlier, if you aren't onboard with 4E around here, you aren't welcome.
I get it. I'm not onboard, I'm not going to be onboard. I dislike 4E. There are better places than here for people who want to be able to discuss 3rd edition, Pathfinder, or frankly, criticise a game that makes us cringe.
Of course both games can co-exist, but the player base has forked. Those, like me, who have been enjoying the game for over twenty years and have several bookshelves full of products feel like we've been dumped. The reason so many of us have left ENWorld is because maybe it enhances our sense of calm if we stop trying to "just get along" and go our separate ways.
The Little Raven
First Post
If by "aren't onboard with" you actually mean "are interested in actively insulting the players of," then I'd say yeah, you won't find a warm welcome. If by "aren't onboard with," you mean "don't like," then you're full of it. The reason people aren't responding in a positive manner to you is that you continually insist on insulting them. People have expressed a dislike of 4e without any problems, because they didn't try to be clever and play semantics with insults, nor paint the game as some common whore giving handjobs to any loser who shows up.
And those, like me, who have been enjoying the game for over twenty years and have several bookshelves full of products feel we don't need elitists who will insult us for having different tastes. If you're really serious about curing this poisonous atmosphere, then I'd suggest you take your venom with you.
where? seriously. where? i have bounced around on some, for all the same basic reasons you have been talking about darin, but i can't find any that are d20/3e/pathfinder centered that i liked. the paizo ones are not for me for some reason. i think fundamentally i just dont like the layout and structure over there. plus it seems to be too pathfinder focused, no surprise.
so, where do you go on the web for good 3e discussions?
Barastrondo
First Post
I think it's more honest as far as this board is concerned to say that if you aren't on board with 4e and you can't be polite about it, you're not going to be made to feel very welcome. But that's also true of other places like RPGnet, where the people who draw the most heat are those who can't criticize a game without throwing some backhanded insults at the player base as well. As with the Internet at large, the ability to discuss what you like calmly and without impugning the people who enjoy something different usually gets much better results.
In fact, I'd say it's better procedure to put some positive energy into discussing what you like instead of putting negative energy into starting a discussion of what you don't. Getting a rant off your chest starts a thread with negative karma from post one, even if it isn't insulting. That's not to say that I don't think people should have the right to post rants or long, critical posts — but threads that start in the negative go farther into the negative far, far more often than they become positive discussion of cool things, and people should keep that trend in mind. If anything, it keeps you from being surprised.
Well there are also plenty of us who have been playing D&D for 20 years who like 4E better than any previous version. *shrug* I'm personally a big fan of Monte's work and yes he has a heavy investment in 3E. But notice that he himself realized many of the lesser points of 3E and made Arcana Unearthed. There are still flaws to be found (note the power level of the magister relative to all other classes, it mirrors the wizard in 3E) but AE/Ptolus is about the only reason I would have to play 3E right now.
It's the dismissive slant that is the problem. Dismissing your reader's opinion is a bad thing. People should realize it, esp if they make a portion (or all) of their living via writing.
Spatula said:
It's the dismissive slant that is the problem. Dismissing your reader's opinion is a bad thing. People should realize it, esp if they make a portion (or all) of their living via writing.
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