Stacking of Effects from different sources

[catsclaw227]

OK -- Here's the scenario:

The party is up against a Drow encounter: 3 Drow warriors, 6 Drow guards (a minion I created), and 1 Drow Arachnomancer.

Once PC is hit by two drow warriors and are effected by the poison -- two different strikes, therefore 2 different "doses" of poison. Then he is hit by the Drow Arachnomancer's Venom Ray, Ongoing 5 poison damage.

When the PC has to save, do they save three times (one for each hit) or just twice, once for the Drow Warrior blade poison and once for the Venom Ray?

Furthermore, if they do need to save three times, does a save end both Drow Poison effects?

And if they fail the Drow Poison and they become also weakened (save ends), does the save end both effects of the poison - the -2 to attack and the weakened condition, or does there need to be two saves?

This stacking thing is sorta confusing.....

 

[Black Knight Irios]

1st turn after being hit:
He saves twice.

Once for the poison of the Drow Warriors and once for the Drow Arachnomancer's poison.
If he fails the save against the drow warrior's poison he becomes also weakened.
(If he fails that save once more he becomes unconscious. Might occur on second turn.)
If he fails against the Arachnomancer's poison the ongoing 5 poison damage persist.

2nd turn after being hit:
He saves trice (assuming a failed save vs. drow warrior poison and arachnomancer's poison):
Once for the -2 attack penalty, once for weakened and once for the ongoing 5 poison damage.

 

[Syrsuro]

I've seen these ruled both ways.

My feeling is (and imho the best interpreation of RAW) is that you are saving versus effects, not powers.

That is - if you have multiple attacks causing the same effect only one of them is actually present and needs a save. The rest do not stack and are ignored.

However, although the Venom Ray and the Drow Poison both have the keyword poison, they are clearly different effects (just as an ongoing fire effect is different from a fireball).

Thus I would rule as follows:

Drow 1 hits: Target takes a -2 penalty to attacks (save ends). Target will be weakened on first failed save and unconscious after second failed save.
Drow 2 hits: Target is already suffering the effects of the first poison and thus the poison has no effect (it does not stack).
Drow Arachnomancer hits with Venom Ray: Target takes immediate damage and ongoing poison damage.
Players Turn: He takes ongoing poison damage and has a penalty to attacks. After doing whatever he is going to do, he needs to make two saves: (Only) One versus the Drow Poison and one versus the Venom Ray.

If I wanted to be nasty as a DM, I might apply penalties to the save for every instance of poison coursing through his veins (say an extra -1) but that would clearly fall into the range of a house rule.

Carl

 

[catsclaw227]

1st turn after being hit:
He saves twice.

Once for the poison of the Drow Warriors and once for the Drow Arachnomancer's poison.
If he fails the save against the drow warrior's poison he becomes also weakened.
(If he fails that save once more he becomes unconscious. Might occur on second turn.)
If he fails against the Arachnomancer's poison the ongoing 5 poison damage persist.

OK, so even though the PC took hits from two different Drow Poison sources (2 attacks from two different Drow Warriors), there is only one save per round necessary, since they are the same source type of "Drow Poison"?

What if they were two different creatures with two different powers, but the end result for each was 5 ongoing poison (save ends)?

Would this require two saves or just one?

 

[catsclaw227]

My feeling is (and imho the best interpreation of RAW) is that you are saving versus effects, not powers.

That is - if you have multiple attacks causing the same effect only one of them is actually present and needs a save. The rest do not stack and are ignored.

You may be right. I might be ruling it like this, but see my post above about another situation.

If I wanted to be nasty as a DM, I might apply penalties to the save for every instance of poison coursing through his veins (say an extra -1) but that would clearly fall into the range of a house rule.

Interesting idea.... I might look into this as a house rule, but it might really suck if a PC is hit by a bunch of minions with a power that requires a save.

 

[Syrsuro]

OK, so even though the PC took hits from two different Drow Poison sources (2 attacks from two different Drow Warriors), there is only one save per round necessary, since they are the same source type of "Drow Poison"?

What if they were two different creatures with two different powers, but the end result for each was 5 ongoing poison (save ends)?

Would this require two saves or just one?

This gets into a greyer area. I would say one save, but I can equally see a logic behind two saves. If you were talking about fire (two different creatures with two different powers, but the end result for each was 5 ongoing fire) I would say only one save. But you can argue that there are different kinds of poisons and thus there should be multiple saves. But I don't see that as RAW - I see poisons simplified down to an effect and the effects not stacking.

You may be right. I might be ruling it like this, but see my post above about another situation.

Indeed. The scenario you describe could end up with three saves (having failed one save versus the Drow Poison, the character now needs to save versus each of three effects: The attack penalty, the weakened condition and the ongoing poison. My scenario stopped after the first round and didn't consider the effect of the failed save.

It is not entirely clear how you are supposed to handle accelerating effects such as the Drow Poison, but based on the fact that many other cases specify (save ends both) when multiple effects are conjoined under a single save while Drow Poison does not, the fact that the section on saves in the PHB describes cases where single powers generate multiple effects, each of which needs a save, and the ruling by CS on sleep spell (which likewise imposes a second effect, with a second save, on those who fail versus the initial effect) I would say that in this case if you fail the save versus the Drow Poison you now have two effects, both applied by the same power, each of which requires its own save. And if a character has saved against (and removed) one of the existing effects a new attack by a Drow could restore that effect (Which brings us back to saving versus effects, not powers).

But that is not due to being hit with multiple instances of Drow Poison, that would be equally true whether the character was hit once or ten times by the Drow Poison.

Carl