The proper role of supporting NPCs?

[S'mon]

That is one way to do it. Something like the way Eberron attempted to limit the number of high level NPCs. I don't know how that worked out for Eberron however. You set it up that way, run it that way and that's cool. The only argument I have is when someone would claim to espouse the one true way to run a setting in regards to NPCs.

Bottom up personal homebrews work well in the manner you describe because they are tailored to the current game. Top down homebrews or published settings attempting to cater to all eventual levels of play therefore require a different method of working.


Wyrmshadows

Well, you mentioned earlier the possibility of a setting with high level NPCs, but the PCs are in a backwater area where they're the big cheeses. That works too. And you can run a big city game where the PCs are rogues and such, avoiding rather than challenging or being helped by the powerful NPCs.

What doesn't work so well IMO is something resembling the FR setup, where canonically the uber-NPCs are prevalent and do deal with mid-level threats, not leaving much for the PCs to do since the rational answer to the orc horde is to sic Elminster on them.

 

[Parlan]

Then there is no heroism in war at all.

Obviously I don't agree with that reductio ad absurdum. But let me respond b/c I think this gives me a good analogy to explain my POV.

Consider, what percentage of an army are frontline combat troops, e.g. fighting in foxholes? IIRC, it's only 10% for a modern military, but in any case, the vast majority are supply guys, cooks, mechanics, and the other guys behind the scenes in logistics. There's a famous quote re. military science, "amatuers study tactics, professionals study logistics." So clearly the thousands and thousands of guys required for the logistics to function are important.

Now, how many war movies do they appear in?

None. Because their jobs, while important, aren't "heroic" in the "make a compelling story" sense.

That said, a story about "the little guys" can be both heroic and compelling. Take another war movie, Saving Private Ryan. Forget that it's WWII, just consider it as a representative war movie. It's about a bunch of low-level guys doing a mission that's only important for propaganda/morale purposes.

We know from history that there are a ton of other guys doing stuff that's more important to achieve the tactical/stratigec objectives necessary to win the war.

But the camera almost never shows these those other guys. It focuses on Tom Hanks' unit the whole time.

That's what I want: the camera to stay on the PCs.

How much would it suck for one of those Pvt Ryan survivors to go to his commanding officer at the end of the film and say the following?





[Pvt Ryan spoilers below]







"General sir, we lost Tom Hanks and that sniper guy got blown up by a tank, but we did it! After much sacrifice we managed to accomplish our mission and save Pvt Ryan!!!"

General, "Great son. While you were doing that we parachuted into three major cities, secured 6 valuable bridgeheads and smashed 8 enemy divisions, capturing 12,000 enemy troops. But seriously, you did a really good job saving that one little guy. What was his name again?"

How can a player *not* feel patronized in a similar situation? And I'm running the game for the players' enjoyment, not the NPCs'.

To turn the question around, why is it *necessary* to tell the players what the high level PCs? I haven't been able to answer that question satisfactorily, so I structure my campaign to keep the high level NPCs out of the world or at least "off screen".

If they need a patron of some kind, I'd much rather that be an organization. That way there's plenty of redshirts, I mean NPCS to go around, but no one that overshadows the PCs.

 

[Parlan]

Then you need to do two things.

First, do not let your PC defer to the NPC's. It should not matter to your character that NPC X can handle a threat better. As far as your character is concerned that just isn't true - YOU can handle it better, or at least as capably as needed, and you don't have to go kowtowing to that so-called "superior" NPC to get his blessing or ORDERS to do what you should friggin' be doing without ASKING ANYONE in the first place.

Why shouldn't it matter to my PC? Most of my characters have at least some survival instinct. If the arch mage can Teleport into the Kobold warren, waste them all with a Fireball or two, and Teleport home w/n 30 seconds why would my PC want to risk his neck?

[I agree with your second point]

Worst case scenario you need to beat your DM upside the head with the Clue Stick and TELL him to stop such nonsense and learn to keep his NPC's IN THEIR PLACE. Their place is NOT at the head of the PC party doing the things that THE PC'S are in the game to do.

And to take it one step further, NPCs' place is also not doing stuff elsewhere in the world that outshines the PC's accomplishments.

Running a spy ring in distant city that does mysterious spy stuff, fine.
Stopping a demon invasion with four NPC buddies, not fine.

 

[Parlan]

If the 5th level PCs are fleeing from an demonic threat and seek shelter in a known bastion of a good faith, wisely seeking somewhere to hide out and the local high priest, realistically helps them defeat the threat that they brought to his attention by using a holy word spell....then this is a legit use of a high level supporting NPC. If the player has a problem with this, then it is their issue and not the DMs problem for believably portraying the NPC.

There is a difference between having a high level NPC act believably in the context of a given campaign/story/circumstance and having an NPC 'show up' the PCs. I have never seen a believable campaign run that didn't occasionally introduce the PCs to their betters as a part of the plot, because the PCs sought them out, or whatever. The PCs do not exist in a heroic vacuum where they are insulated from those superior to them in power and ability.

I basically agree with you. And apparently you've been DMing for over 20 years, so you are clearly doing something right.

But in the above situation, I would be conflicted as a player. I'd be happy that my PC was saved, but I'd be a little irritated that I had to turn to an NPC to do it.

It would make me feel like my PC is hiding behind his mommy's apron strings.*

I'd rather have a situation that the PCs could handle on their own.

If there are demon armies marauding through the world, then I want to start play at a level where the PCs can start dealing with them. Not spend 2 years of real time waiting to be high enough level to actually deal with them.

Or if there is a society dedicated to protecting the world from high level evil, fine, but I want it to be a *secret* society. That way, I can feel cool at 8th level when my PC gets invited to join. My point is, I don't want to spend 8 levels hearing about how cool this secret society is while I'm still too low level to join.

*I'd be more cool with this though if some action of the PCs caused the release of the demon army though.

 

[Fenes]

Something I forgot to add: Another problem with showing off NPC's stats is that it can lead to players starting to run the NPC, or armchair-quarterback it ("If it's a level 18 wizard, why doesn't he simply cast..." "With X Spell and Y item he could do this, and then that, and we do not need to do Z")

 

[Fenes]

Cleaned my posts up and condesned them to a blog entry.

 

[Krensky]

When I last ran a Realms game I tended to use the high level NPCs as patrons, administrators (because most of them are described that way in the books) and celebrities. The PCs might get a quick description or glimpse of them, maybe even them showing off, but it's like seeing a star actor in the supermarket.

As for play, the solution I had was, quite frankly, the NPCs don't get involved for either of two reasons:

1) You (well, one of the PCs) are the tool I (in my role as one of the heads of the Harpers) I am sending to investigate and solve this issue. I've given you all the intelligence we have and some gear and cash. Have at it. I'm not going because I'm busy dealing with things you can not. Generally, what the PCs can not wasn't fighting villians, but either acting as a strategic threat or expending effort and energy to counter the uber villians plots, partly by sending the PCs and others like them to handle elements of those plots appropriate to their power and partly by just being where they were. Please note this happened twice in the game, and only because the players chose to be (or hang around the PC who was a) Harper.

2) The powerful NPCs are busy and involved in handling and resisting dozens of things. They are not going to help you with your personal problems. The Players and the PCs knew this so they didn't go whining to Elminster or the Blackstaff or Silverhand that their sister was kidnapped or their room in the inn was burgled.

3) The powerful NPCs can not be everywhere. PCs often stumble upon things and they develop fast, so being the men on the spot they should deal with it. Again, they did not go whining to their bosses (or their friend's bosses), they just did it.

4) I think I used Elminster (using the tired and slightly insane version) as a deus ex machina once in four years when the players because the players screwed up by the numbers, rolled abysmally, and I completely misjudged the encounter. However, he didn't show up and zap the monster before it killed them, he brought them back from the dead because he needed them to do something for him that he couldn't because, being Elminster, he was being watched. Hence the PCs. After a few sessions on that arc, the PCs jokingly grumbled it might have been better to stay dead since the mission made little sense to them and was not a walk in the park.

 

[Dausuul]

Some ways of dealing with high-level good-aligned NPCs:

1: The NPC is not a combatant. This is much easier to do in 4th Edition, where NPC stats are a la carte rather than being dictated by classes, and there's a clear segregation between combat and noncombat abilities. Let's say you want an extremely powerful wise old wizard. So, you give him the Ritual Caster feat and declare him to be 28th level, allowing him to cast just about every ritual in the book. You give him skills to match, so his rituals all work. You give him plenty of material components.

And then you give him 15 hit points, crap physical stats, and no combat powers to speak of.

This guy can quite legitimately lay claim to the "mighty wizard" label. He can perform incredible feats of magic, using ritual casting. But he can't fight worth a damn, so he needs the PCs to go out and do his fighting for him.

2. The NPC is not in a position to go adventuring. This is a good one for monarchs and powerful nobles. The queen could be a paragon- or even epic-level fighter, but she can't go off slaying monsters in distant lands, because the kingdom falls apart if she leaves. So she sends the PCs to do the job for her.

3. The NPC is needed elsewhere. You have to take care with this one to avoid giving the feeling of "the NPC is taking care of the big problem while you PCs go off and do the minor stuff," but as long as you watch that tendency, it can be quite effective.

This approach works best in situations where the BBEG is too powerful for anyone to defeat in direct combat. The NPC announces that he will hold the BBEG's forces at bay, while the PCs go out and collect plot coupons until they can redeem them for a way to beat the BBEG once and for all. If the NPC were to go out and hunt for plot coupons, the BBEG's forces would win while the NPC was out.

4. The NPC's power is constrained by an even more powerful evil NPC. Perhaps the great priestess is in hiding, not daring to use her divine magic lest the demon lord sense it and come to destroy her. Perhaps the mighty warrior has been stricken with deadly illness by the lich-king. Something like that.

 

[green slime]

Still going?

Ah well...

1) NPC's have their own motives and interests. These are not necessarily inline with the aims of the PCs. (They may be negotiating with the leader for the demonic invasion for eternal life, for instance, or the return of the soul of a long lost love)

2) NPCs may be wary of committing too many of their own resources to a conflict area, before more information is forthcoming, as there may be actions required on other fronts. (Is that really the main purpose of the demonic invasion, or is there another, hidden purpose).

3) A wise NPC understands that there is an advantage in not being seen to participate in the battle, but to fight through proxy. Deniability when the excrement strikes the air duct is a powerful tool.

4) There is the possibility that the kobold infestation is actually just a well-laid trap, prepared for by the NPC's enemies (He teleports in, and is promptly eaten by a veiled legendary titanic half-dragon purple worm)

5) PCs get to stamp their own course, twiddling, meddling and upsetting the plans of the many NPCs in the world, gaining reputation/noteriety, friends, allies and enemies.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Along with avoiding statting out NPCs, would it help if the campaign setting is in general lower-powered, with fewer magic items? I think the prevalence of characters decked out like Christmas trees, with magic shops to boot, really leads to problems when players wonder why, if these characters have such vast resources, why they don't just solve the problems themselves. They might also reasonably ask as to why the NPC doesn't at least help them with buffs, scrying, or teleportation to and from the place, as Fenes pointed out.

Part of the problem might simply be that the NPCs just don't have access to teleportation or scrying. Even the BBEG won't have as many magical goodies and resources as he might like-sure, having multiple items of protection might be nice, but even BBEGs only have so many resources they can distribute. Same thing with buffs-if I were in charge, I'd rule that you can have bull's strength or cat's grace, but not both-if you try to cast a second buff on someone when they already have one, congratulations, you've lost them both because they cancel each other out.

From what I'm getting in this thread, the big problem is having the players be in the NPC's shadow, or otherwise having them serve as deus ex machina. It doesn't seem like, for example, most players would object to the Wise Old Wizard (tm) doing a lot of research to point them in the right direction, or otherwise using all the plot coupons they've gathered to create a way to defeat the villain-after all, the players still have to act on the information, and they get to do all the dangerous and glorious stuff. The NPC just took care of the boring parts and leaves the fun ones for the players.

Would there be any objection for a high-ranking (as opposed to high level) NPC pulling some strings to help the players out, if it's handled correctly? If, for instance, the players are continually frustrated by that band of corrupt young noblemen who they beat up for harassing the barmaids and peasants in the tavern, with the young nobles using their political power to harass the players, would they object if a more powerful aristocrat, who feels he owes the PCs a favor because they rescued his daughter when she was kidnapped by those bandits who raided the caravan, pulled sone strings to get the younger nobles off their backs? This could potentially be used to gain a friend that can otherwise smooth things over and help the PCs when they're in town, but who otherwise doesn't get involved in their business and isn't making them do step-and-fetch quests or upstaging them.