Cheating cheaters

[Vyvyan Basterd]

IMO, cheaters are weak. I don't agree with all the above psycho-babble crap, but I do agree that cheaters are almost always trying to compensate for something.

A player in my current campaign once asked me when I ran a weekly campaign open to anyone at my FLGS why I allowed one particularly blatant cheater to continue playing.

The main reason I allowed him to stay and not call him out on his cheating was because it was extremely fun for me to watch him cheat and still fail miserably.

If she is a good friend all you can do is mention to her seriously, privately out of game, that you don't enjoy people cheating at the table. But in the big picture, it is just a game.

 

[catsclaw227]

Or perhaps, she knows she has to do it surreptitiously because she knows you and the other players don't approve of her preferred playstyle.

So her choice is to either have her preferred playstyle, but do it secretly, or to not have her preferred playstyle at all. At which point she might not want to play.

I am curious, though. When did being dishonest become categorized as a "preferred playstyle"? Are we really becoming so squishy as a society and afraid of hurting people's feelings that we don't want to call cheating what it really is? Rolling a 2 and knowingly telling people that you got a 20 is just plain dishonest. Especially when the results are so wildly different.

Maybe you just take her aside, and say something like:

"Listen xxxx, I really like you and like having you in the game. But we know you are fudging your dice rolls. Everyone has seen it multiple times. We totally dig your part in our game and we want you to play, so can I count on you to take the time to be sure of your dice results before you call out a number?"

 

[Obryn]

In some people's psyches failure at anything feeds their darkness. And cheating at die rolls maybe their only way to fight against that darkness.

...

You know, I'm more than a little shocked.

I don't consider running a game to be my opportunity to help my players' psychological fights against their inner demons. They can get psychoanalyzed, go to counseling, or get put on medications at their own leisure. During the game, it's time to throw some dice around and kill orcs.

I agree with catsclaw - since when is cheating just an acceptable playstyle? It's not acceptable in Monopoly, it's not acceptable in Football, it's not acceptable in marriage, and no group I've ever been involved with has considered it acceptable in RPGs.

Am I just completely naive to think that "don't cheat" is part of an assumed social construct when playing games with rules?

I don't want to torment her, I don't want her to feel bad. It's a behavior that's a problem at the table, and I'm looking for the simplest, least offensive way possible to correct that behavior.

You feel the cheating is bothering you, well, you're not a psychiatrist so it isn't your job to cure her. It's your job to have fun. Part ways as amicably as you can with as little reference to the cheating as possible.

That's missing the point, though. I'm looking to keep an otherwise good player, but solve a problem behavior without aggressively calling her out. Asking her to leave the game without any reference to the problem is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish - which is keep the player, solve the problem.

-O

 

[fba827]

So, since it's bothering my players as much or more than it is me, I asked them to help me out. Unless she sits next to me, I can't watch her die rolls. Simply, I asked the few I talked with last night to ... well, cheer her on when she's rolling, and loudly announce the results. Sneaky, I know. But it gets more pairs of eyes on her dice. "Come on, roll high! Awwww, a two."

They seem game and genuinely interested in helping out.

That would have been my suggestion -- but you're already trying it. How has that helped (if any) so far? Do her miracle success seem to have leveled off a little with more eyes glued on her dice?

 

[Obryn]

That would have been my suggestion -- but you're already trying it. How has that helped (if any) so far? Do her miracle success seem to have leveled off a little with more eyes glued on her dice?

I just pulled 'em aside last night for this, so time will tell...

-O

 

[Engilbrand]

Cheating isn't a playstyle. If the ideas that some have mentioned were applied equally to everything... Hell on Earth?
Can you sit at a smaller table? Can she roll towards the center? I don't trust people who don't let you see their dice. I hate DM screens. I don't use them. I don't fudge. If I "cheat", it's in adding abilities to things. When it comes to the random stuff, though, I leave everything as random as it should be.
When I was a kid, I liked to cheat in computer games. If you typed "E=MC2" into Age of Empires, you'd get a unit with a super laser that would lay waste to everything. That was fun for a little bit. But there's a reason that I stopped doing that. There's a reason that I never had a Game Genie. It's because cheating takes the fun out of it. Cheating other players? That's crappy.

 

[Fifth Element]

When did being dishonest become categorized as a "preferred playstyle"?

Never, so far as I know, and certainly this was not the implication of my post. The playstyle in question is considering the random result of a die roll to be relatively unimportant. The dishonesty arises due to the rejection of said playstyle by the DM and other players.

 

[jmucchiello]

...

You know, I'm more than a little shocked.

I don't consider running a game to be my opportunity to help my players' psychological fights against their inner demons. They can get psychoanalyzed, go to counseling, or get put on medications at their own leisure. During the game, it's time to throw some dice around and kill orcs.

Assuming they know they need counseling. No one who cheats thinks about why they do it. Not without outside help. I said you are not her psychiatrist so it isn't your job to help her solve her problems. You are however her friend I suppose and as a friend you should have some interest in her well-being, mental or otherwise. It is for this reason that calling her to task in front of others is a problem. If you want to continue playing with her at the table then you accept her for who she is or you don't play together.

I agree with catsclaw - since when is cheating just an acceptable playstyle? It's not acceptable in Monopoly, it's not acceptable in Football, it's not acceptable in marriage, and no group I've ever been involved with has considered it acceptable in RPGs.

No one said cheating is an acceptable playstyle. But RPGs are non-competitive. Cheating is obviously a symptom of some other issue. Does your horror at witnessing the dishonorable cheating outweigh your friendship with this person or does it make you wonder why she does it? What is more important to you cheating at D&D or your friendship with her? I can't answer that for you. But how you answer should tell you how to deal with this problem.

Am I just completely naive to think that "don't cheat" is part of an assumed social construct when playing games with rules?

No. If it wasn't we wouldn't be discussing it. But there is the social contract of gaming and there is the social contract of friendship here. The friendship contract should push you toward sympathy and inquiry. Without the friendship contract, yeah, don't play with cheaters.

I don't want to torment her, I don't want her to feel bad. It's a behavior that's a problem at the table, and I'm looking for the simplest, least offensive way possible to correct that behavior.

And yet you lectured the group about how cheating is bad. So you've already alerted her to your suspicion that she cheats; told her it you don't approve of it; and, put her on her guard.

That's missing the point, though. I'm looking to keep an otherwise good player, but solve a problem behavior without aggressively calling her out. Asking her to leave the game without any reference to the problem is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish - which is keep the player, solve the problem.

Most problems do not have a simple solution. Why someone cheats in front of her friends cannot have a simple solution. Tread lightly.

If you really want to solve the problem you are going to have to talk to her one-on-one and see if she knows why she cheats. But this can easily lead to disaster. Primarily because she may not know why she cheats initially. As I said before, while she may have a rationalization for why cheating is okay, I doubt she's thought about why she resorted to cheating in the first place.

You also have to realize that "solving the problem" may not be possible. Perhaps she'll be too embarrassed to continue playing with your group if you confront her, no matter how delicately or ham-fistedly you approach the subject. She might be in such denial that she'll vehemently deny it and if you press she'll never speak to you again. Perhaps she'll nod and agree not to cheat any more to your face and then continue doing so. Then what will you do?

This is why my first piece of advice was live and let live. Unless you accept the range of possible consequences for calling out a cheater, you are better off letting the cheating go. I'm not saying cheating is right. I'm just saying in the grand scheme of things, it isn't worth getting worked up about.

 

[Arnwyn]

So, since it's bothering my players as much or more than it is me, I asked them to help me out. Unless she sits next to me, I can't watch her die rolls. Simply, I asked the few I talked with last night to ... well, cheer her on when she's rolling, and loudly announce the results. Sneaky, I know. But it gets more pairs of eyes on her dice. "Come on, roll high! Awwww, a two."

They seem game and genuinely interested in helping out.

Just noting that this is an excellent excellent method (especially so if it really is bothering your players more than you - the onus, and responsibility, is on them to handle it... not you).

An early 'policy' to make is to ensure everyone rolls out in the open so multiple people can see it, and no snatching dice away. catsclaw227's shoebox advice is very good.

And while Fifth Element's and jmucchiello's take on things is... interesting..., you (probably!) aren't well-equipped to conduct some freaky pop-psychology as to "why" your player likes to cheat. It also isn't particularly relevant why the majority of your players don't like that kind of "play style" - they just don't, and there we go. And, since we all know some play styles don't mesh with others, it is perfectly legitimate to "have a problem" with and put a stop to said styles when they conflict with the majority of the group. Kind of self-evident, actually.

I think you're on the right track, Obryn.

 

[Fifth Element]

When it comes to the random stuff, though, I leave everything as random as it should be.

Here's the playstyle issue right here. How random should it be? What if you think it should be less random than other people do? Why is there only one right amount of random?

When I was a kid, I liked to cheat in computer games. If you typed "E=MC2" into Age of Empires, you'd get a unit with a super laser that would lay waste to everything. That was fun for a little bit. But there's a reason that I stopped doing that. There's a reason that I never had a Game Genie. It's because cheating takes the fun out of it.

If WotC gave this advice, they would be assailed for telling people what's fun and what's not. Maybe you don't find it fun for long, but why does that make it wrong for other people to find it fun?

It takes the fun out of it for you. Don't presume to judge what other people find fun.

Cheating other players? That's crappy.

If the other players feel cheated in this situation, you need to find out why. Are they not having fun? Would they have more fun if they got better die rolls? That's something that should be addressed.