Cheating cheaters

[catsclaw227]

Never, so far as I know, and certainly this was not the implication of my post. The playstyle in question is considering the random result of a die roll to be relatively unimportant. The dishonesty arises due to the rejection of said playstyle by the DM and other players.

OK, I understand, but we have no idea if her preferred playstyle is to remove the randomness of D&D. And if it is, then why is she playing D&D? It has always had and always will have a random element to it.

But, regardless, the issue is not about a preferred playstyle. It is that she is dishonest with the group about her dice.

 

[renau1g]

...

You know, I'm more than a little shocked.

I agree with catsclaw - since when is cheating just an acceptable playstyle? It's not acceptable in Monopoly, it's not acceptable in Football, it's not acceptable in marriage, and no group I've ever been involved with has considered it acceptable in RPGs.


That's missing the point, though. I'm looking to keep an otherwise good player, but solve a problem behavior without aggressively calling her out. Asking her to leave the game without any reference to the problem is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish - which is keep the player, solve the problem.

-O

I agree with you Obryn . I had a similar experience with a player. This player had gone so far as to bring cheating dice to the table... . How I remedied the situation was a two-fold. I set-up the Character Sheets around the table where I wanted players to sit, asking the others to help out (one also DM's part-time with our group so he was aware).

I also instituted a policy that all players must roll any attack rolls on the table in full view of everyone, and that any new dice brought to the table are subject to DM inspection. I think they still cheat as during Initiative, they've never rolled below 16 for over a month now... but hey, you can only do so much.

 

[Delta]

My attitude as both player and DM is if that's how someone enjoys playing D&D, who am I to say it's wrong (or pathetic, or sad)? I don't "cheat" as a player, and I don't think any of my players do either, but what's the big deal?... All D&D players have their quirks. Why can't this be hers?

<Jaw hits floor>

 

[Fifth Element]

And while Fifth Element's and jmucchiello's take on things is... interesting..., you (probably!) aren't well-equipped to conduct some freaky pop-psychology as to "why" your player likes to cheat.

Please note, the pop psychology came from jmucchiello, and although I agree with him in principle I don't necessarily support how he makes the argument.

It also isn't particularly relevant why the majority of your players don't like that kind of "play style" - they just don't, and there we go.

Which is fine and good, but overcoming the deception by more deception (pretend to cheer her on, but really just check what she rolls) is pretty crappy.

But again, just because you wouldn't play in a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that someone else playing that way actually hinders your fun. So again, why does this bother the other players? Maybe they can accept it and move on, so that everyone can have fun, rather than telling one player she's just wrong, period.

 

[Fifth Element]

<Jaw hits floor>

Well, that's a helpful comment. It certainly explains why players fudging their die rolls is inherently wrong.

 

[Fifth Element]

OK, I understand, but we have no idea if her preferred playstyle is to remove the randomness of D&D.

True, but it's certainly as valid as supposing she's out to cheat the other players or the DM.

And if it is, then why is she playing D&D? It has always had and always will have a random element to it.

Maybe she likes everything else about the game? I don't know. There are several things I don't like about D&D but I still play it. Maybe her friends only play D&D and she can't find another group? Who knows?

But, regardless, the issue is not about a preferred playstyle. It is that she is dishonest with the group about her dice.

Again, this might only be because the other players and DM are openly disdainful of how she chooses to play.

 

[Obryn]

If WotC gave this advice, they would be assailed for telling people what's fun and what's not. Maybe you don't find it fun for long, but why does that make it wrong for other people to find it fun?

If a group wants to sit around and decide, "Go ahead and fudge your rolls when you want to!" that's kinda their decision. As a group. Heck, many games give specific metagame mechanics for this, like pre-4e Action Points, Drama Points, Karma, etc.

There's a bigtime difference between a group decision to allow player dice-cheating and one player cheating all their dice rolls. I can't see how they're remotely similar. Regardless of jmucchiello's misinterpretation of "social contract", there's a general assumption, when people are sitting down to play games, that people will play fairly and use the rules instead of ignoring them. Unless it's Euchre.

And I can't believe I'm sitting here explaining this.

And while Fifth Element's and jmucchiello's take on things is... interesting..., you (probably!) aren't well-equipped to conduct some freaky pop-psychology as to "why" your player likes to cheat.

Well, I have a BA in psych and the better part of a Master's degree, but my concentration was in cognitive/behavioral research, and not the touchy-feely counseling stuff.

I think you're on the right track, Obryn.

Thanks!

-O

 

[Arnwyn]

But again, just because you wouldn't play in a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean that someone else playing that way actually hinders your fun. So again, why does this bother the other players? Maybe they can accept it and move on, so that everyone can have fun, rather than telling one player she's just wrong, period.

Necessarily? Oh heavens, of course not.

But I think the OP has been more than clear about the current situation and tastes of his particular group.

Well, I have a BA in psych and the better part of a Master's degree, but my concentration was in cognitive/behavioral research, and not the touchy-feely counseling stuff.

And that's why I'm glad I put in words like "probably"...!

 

[renau1g]

Well if every attack/check is a success we should throw the dice out the window and sit around and have a group narrative then?

That isn't how the game is played. Cheating isn't a playstyle.

 

[hanasays]

In the group of people that I play in (not just the group I'm currently playing in, but the social "pool" of players that I tend to play with), there is a designated "rolling area". This is often indicated by a piece of poster board or otherwise clearly delineated. It's well-lit and visible to everyone in the group.

The rolling area is the ONLY area that a dice roll is considered valid in. Any roll that lands outside of the area, even if the dice accidentally rolled beyond the marker, is considered invalid - whether it's 1 inch or 1 foot from the line. No exceptions. The dice CANNOT be touched picked up by the player until the DM has verified the roll, or else the roll is invalid and the player must reroll. Again - no exceptions. We developed this 'rule' in order to deal with a chronic cheater of our own.

For rolls that are, by necessity, "private" (example: Player 1 is rolling a Bluff or Sleight of Hand or Move Silently check against Player 2) we have a bent posterboard 'screen' similar to the DM's screen that is set up (it fits around 2 edges of the designated rolling area) and the player makes the roll - the DM verifies the roll - the screen is pulled down and the game moves on.

Everybody accepts and abides by this, and it works wonderfully because all of the players trust each other.